My observations of the line procedure

[kylers234]

IF there are only two of you, why not use some of that vast, unused real estate? Tarp hopping is a time honored tradition; one I have enjoyed many times over the years and plan to enjoy for many more years.

It's nice to have your own spot if you want to leave your stuff there and go into town.  You really can't leave stuff on someone's empty tarp that might fill up while you're gone.  I do move up to other's empty tarps in the front during bands I want to see up close, but most of the time, we like sitting towards the back on our own little tarp.  I guess next year we could try poaching a corner of a huge unoccupied tarp and claim eminent domain when the owner arrives.

 Listening to: Black Prairie, A Tear in the Eye is a Wound in the Heart

[FaceOnMars]

Don't worry, Josh. Trust the Planet to make the correct decisions.

I don't necessarily know if there is a "correct" decision; however, any given decision will have it's consequences.  From a marketing position, PB may wish to consider:

A.) Continue to allow the status quo regarding the eternal tarp line, empty space up front, and tarps bleeding into food lines ... which would appease the "traditionalists" who are willing and able to work the system to their advantage by a communal effort of sheer numbers and superior "insider knowledge" of the system.   This route might keep 2-3k core repeat festivarians appeased, but it also kinda enables somewhat of a "stacked deck" whereby newcomers and semi-regulars might get turned off having to go through extreme contortions to even have a shot at a decent spot AND get some sleep.  While most people in most "camps" are extremely friendly and generally welcoming, the current tarp line system is still very competitive, somewhat cliquish, and antithetical to a relaxed/festive music experience, IMO.   I wouldn't say that this is an "incorrect" trajectory, as it does keep a certain core constituency happy on a number of fronts.  Nonetheless, there seems to be a growing risk of devolving into more of a closed system - alienating newcomers and people who don't want to deal with a system which has simply gotten out of hand.

B.) Or, PB could opt to "shuffle the deck" a bit more in terms of access to better real estate via randomization of tarp line numbers and tarp size enforcement.   This option would probably go over well with those who aren't connected with large groups and simply can't play the game and get some sleep.  I believe this segment of the market vastly outnumbers the those who favor and benefit from the status quo.   Shuffling the deck would probably go a long way to help enable a more "open system" in so far as a fair and level playing field to court newcomers, bring back semi-regulars more frequently, and retaining those who are a bit disgruntled on this count but come anyway.   People would no longer have to choose between no sleep or pledging to a camp ... and those who have simply opted out of the tarp run entirely in recent years would again be more enaged in the process.  On the other side of the coin, this would surely ruffle the feathers of a good chunk of people who have gotten used to the status quo.

I can see how PB might be adverse to tinkering with a system which has proven itself to sell out regularly in recent years; however, by the same token, the powers that be surely must realize there wouldn't be a mass exodus by those in favor of the status quo if the deck were shuffled and large groups were no longer "guaranteed" large blocks of primo real estate or if they had to hop around a bit more to see all of their fellow festivarians.  I see the appeal of keeping very loyal elements of your market very happy, but I don't believe it's an "either / or" proposition.

[completejohn]

Face -

I think you've got it, at least for Town Park campers.  Either keep it the same or make the changes.  I'd rather change it, but just cuz I think it would be more fair for everyone AND give everyone a chance to sleep (something that vacations are made for).

However I would make addition to your changes (if any are made).  Double or triple the size of the "no standing zone" and make it a "Standing ONLY" zone.  No tarp, no chairs, just FANS of the bands that are playing.  Hey, that already kinda happens for Yonder and Greensky and the others for which that the security people just give up on protecting that area.  The bands would like it, the people who don't get prime real estate for the entire day would like it, and even the camps that have "huge tracts of land" (Python) could hang out or join the throng of fans up front.   

OK.  Just one more thought.  Allow the tapers to put up a rope or caution tape around their area to protect it a bit. I so LOVE what they do for us!!!!

[Rob_from_Ohio]

Face -

I think you've got it, at least for Town Park campers.  Either keep it the same or make the changes.  I'd rather change it, but just cuz I think it would be more fair for everyone AND give everyone a chance to sleep (something that vacations are made for).

However I would make addition to your changes (if any are made).  Double or triple the size of the "no standing zone" and make it a "Standing ONLY" zone.  No tarp, no chairs, just FANS of the bands that are playing.  Hey, that already kinda happens for Yonder and Greensky and the others for which that the security people just give up on protecting that area.  The bands would like it, the people who don't get prime real estate for the entire day would like it, and even the camps that have "huge tracts of land" (Python) could hang out or join the throng of fans up front.   

OK.  Just one more thought.  Allow the tapers to put up a rope or caution tape around their area to protect it a bit. I so LOVE what they do for us!!!!

I think this guy is onto something!! 

[TellurideTom]

Face -

I think you've got it, at least for Town Park campers.  Either keep it the same or make the changes.  I'd rather change it, but just cuz I think it would be more fair for everyone AND give everyone a chance to sleep (something that vacations are made for).

However I would make addition to your changes (if any are made).  Double or triple the size of the "no standing zone" and make it a "Standing ONLY" zone.  No tarp, no chairs, just FANS of the bands that are playing.  Hey, that already kinda happens for Yonder and Greensky and the others for which that the security people just give up on protecting that area.  The bands would like it, the people who don't get prime real estate for the entire day would like it, and even the camps that have "huge tracts of land" (Python) could hang out or join the throng of fans up front.   

OK.  Just one more thought.  Allow the tapers to put up a rope or caution tape around their area to protect it a bit. I so LOVE what they do for us!!!!

I think this guy is onto something!! 

I actually had to re-read that, cause I almost thought you said "I think this guy is on something". 

[IMHBTR]

First, I was a festivirgin this year. That being said,
I've been to 100's of shows, festivals, etc. Telluride
Is by far the greatest venue I've been to. The sound
Is phenomenal for an outdoor show. I don't need
to see Jerry Douglas' sweat rolling off his forehead.
I viewed the shows from all different places and loved it all.
The tarp line is one of the silliest things I've ever seen at a show.
Every time I passed that line I thought To myself what
A waste if time. I will be back and will enjoy my sleep
And the show. Guess you guys can figure out this
nonsense.


 Listening to: AM Dew- Pembroke Pines-circa 1977

[IMHBTR]

BTW, nightgrass is fantastic.

[HuckinFappy]

Good grief.  I go away for 10 days, and this thread is still going?   

I read it...and I'm not going to dig back for specific citations to reply to, but here are the thoughts I had while reading.

- Plans which make managing the line more work for the planet should be avoided.
- Some of us don't care about the front of the line or the front of the festival.   I get up at 4:00, get my 140-180 number, and score our desired shade spot for all the families in out camp.   Plans which "level the playing field" for the absurd front of the line shouldn't punish folks who are reasonable.
- Enlarging the "Standing only" area sounds nice, but it's going to be pretty empty too often.
- Stop whining about the "vast expanses of empty tarps" and just go sit on them for pete's sake

I *do* agree the beginning of the line is ludicrous.   If I were king, the first changes I'd make would be:

- Any chairs found anywhere *near* the line between noon and "the start of the last act" should be taken to the lost and found.   Moving the stupid chairs back and forth over the walkway at pre-determined times is just stupid.
- When numbers are issues, make the first 100 randomized.   This puts all the line buffoons on the same playing field.

This should effectively change the behaviors of the "line mafia" since they can't game the system the way they have been.   

Most importantly, realize the Planet isn't our tool for this.  I heard somebody say "Claire essentially runs the line".  What a bunch of hooey.   He's just more extreme (read: absurd) than the rest of us.  So stop deferring to the mafia.   When you walk past the empty chairs in the middle of the day, move them.   Disrupt the norm.   If you don't like it, fix it.   If you find you're in a minority, suck it up.

[BillyBeru]

Good grief.  I go away for 10 days, and this thread is still going?   

I read it...and I'm not going to dig back for specific citations to reply to, but here are the thoughts I had while reading.

- Plans which make managing the line more work for the planet should be avoided.
- Some of us don't care about the front of the line or the front of the festival.   I get up at 4:00, get my 140-180 number, and score our desired shade spot for all the families in out camp.   Plans which "level the playing field" for the absurd front of the line shouldn't punish folks who are reasonable.
- Enlarging the "Standing only" area sounds nice, but it's going to be pretty empty too often.
- Stop whining about the "vast expanses of empty tarps" and just go sit on them for pete's sake

I *do* agree the beginning of the line is ludicrous.   If I were king, the first changes I'd make would be:

- Any chairs found anywhere *near* the line between noon and "the start of the last act" should be taken to the lost and found.   Moving the stupid chairs back and forth over the walkway at pre-determined times is just stupid.
- When numbers are issues, make the first 100 randomized.   This puts all the line buffoons on the same playing field.

This should effectively change the behaviors of the "line mafia" since they can't game the system the way they have been.   

Most importantly, realize the Planet isn't our tool for this.  I heard somebody say "Claire essentially runs the line".  What a bunch of hooey.   He's just more extreme (read: absurd) than the rest of us.  So stop deferring to the mafia.   When you walk past the empty chairs in the middle of the day, move them.   Disrupt the norm.   If you don't like it, fix it.   If you find you're in a minority, suck it up.

Spot on! 

[Hooch]

Good grief.  I go away for 10 days, and this thread is still going?   

I read it...and I'm not going to dig back for specific citations to reply to, but here are the thoughts I had while reading.

- Plans which make managing the line more work for the planet should be avoided.
- Some of us don't care about the front of the line or the front of the festival.   I get up at 4:00, get my 140-180 number, and score our desired shade spot for all the families in out camp.   Plans which "level the playing field" for the absurd front of the line shouldn't punish folks who are reasonable.
- Enlarging the "Standing only" area sounds nice, but it's going to be pretty empty too often.
- Stop whining about the "vast expanses of empty tarps" and just go sit on them for pete's sake

I *do* agree the beginning of the line is ludicrous.   If I were king, the first changes I'd make would be:

- Any chairs found anywhere *near* the line between noon and "the start of the last act" should be taken to the lost and found.   Moving the stupid chairs back and forth over the walkway at pre-determined times is just stupid.
- When numbers are issues, make the first 100 randomized.   This puts all the line buffoons on the same playing field.

This should effectively change the behaviors of the "line mafia" since they can't game the system the way they have been.   

Most importantly, realize the Planet isn't our tool for this.  I heard somebody say "Claire essentially runs the line".  What a bunch of hooey.   He's just more extreme (read: absurd) than the rest of us.  So stop deferring to the mafia.   When you walk past the empty chairs in the middle of the day, move them.   Disrupt the norm.   If you don't like it, fix it.   If you find you're in a minority, suck it up.

Let's not confuse the issue with logic!

[HuckinFappy]

Let's not confuse the issue with logic!

I'm ashamed of myself....forgive me...   

[FaceOnMars]

It'd sure be nice to turn back the clock to yesteryear and have a 4am "start time" be orderly and reasonable, but unfortunately it seems the genie is out of the bottle at this stage of the game.  A very slippery slope has emerged whereby a large number of people are all competing to be in the front of the pack & have pushed the limits beyond reason.

While randomizing the first 100 numbers might be a step in the right direction, I don't know that it'd put a sufficient road block to the slippery slope & it still doesn't address the "institutional advantage" a large camp would still have over couples/smaller_groups who would still be subject to not getting any sleep every night vs. big camps where people take turns with duties.

I agree that empty chairs which violate the rules should be tossed aside ... but this is a good example of how festivarian spirit and basic human nature can be at odds.  IOW, most people won't make the direct confrontation and will prefer to go with the flow of "good vibes".  Who wants to ruffle anyone's feathers?  Yet at the same time, some people are willing to make more "passive" incremental gains by pushing the envelope of established rules under the cloak of the masses.

By contrast, on a powder day, if people started lining up their skis/boards in the lift line the night before, you better believe they'll be tossed aside come 6am or whenever the first person shows up!  Seems to me, the "no friends on a powder day" mantra at least cuts to the chase, yet we all get along and smile together.

Certainly not looking to pile more work on to PB, but I don't think it would be an enormous undertaking by any stretch ... although I'm sure there'd be a transitional period which whereby people would need to get used to & accept randomization of the tarp line.

[BillyBeru]

It'd sure be nice to turn back the clock to yesteryear and have a 4am "start time" be orderly and reasonable, but unfortunately it seems the genie is out of the bottle at this stage of the game.  A very slippery slope has emerged whereby a large number of people are all competing to be in the front of the pack & have pushed the limits beyond reason.

While randomizing the first 100 numbers might be a step in the right direction, I don't know that it'd put a sufficient road block to the slippery slope & it still doesn't address the "institutional advantage" a large camp would still have over couples/smaller_groups who would still be subject to not getting any sleep every night vs. big camps where people take turns with duties.

I agree that empty chairs which violate the rules should be tossed aside ... but this is a good example of how festivarian spirit and basic human nature can be at odds.  IOW, most people won't make the direct confrontation and will prefer to go with the flow of "good vibes".  Who wants to ruffle anyone's feathers?  Yet at the same time, some people are willing to make more "passive" incremental gains by pushing the envelope of established rules under the cloak of the masses.

By contrast, on a powder day, if people started lining up their skis/boards in the lift line the night before, you better believe they'll be tossed aside come 6am or whenever the first person shows up!  Seems to me, the "no friends on a powder day" mantra at least cuts to the chase, yet we all get along and smile together.

Certainly not looking to pile more work on to PB, but I don't think it would be an enormous undertaking by any stretch ... although I'm sure there'd be a transitional period which whereby people would need to get used to & accept randomization of the tarp line.

 
 

Sure thing ,FOS, aka Mr. Mundane.

[FaceOnMars]

It'd sure be nice to turn back the clock to yesteryear and have a 4am "start time" be orderly and reasonable, but unfortunately it seems the genie is out of the bottle at this stage of the game.  A very slippery slope has emerged whereby a large number of people are all competing to be in the front of the pack & have pushed the limits beyond reason.

While randomizing the first 100 numbers might be a step in the right direction, I don't know that it'd put a sufficient road block to the slippery slope & it still doesn't address the "institutional advantage" a large camp would still have over couples/smaller_groups who would still be subject to not getting any sleep every night vs. big camps where people take turns with duties.

I agree that empty chairs which violate the rules should be tossed aside ... but this is a good example of how festivarian spirit and basic human nature can be at odds.  IOW, most people won't make the direct confrontation and will prefer to go with the flow of "good vibes".  Who wants to ruffle anyone's feathers?  Yet at the same time, some people are willing to make more "passive" incremental gains by pushing the envelope of established rules under the cloak of the masses.

By contrast, on a powder day, if people started lining up their skis/boards in the lift line the night before, you better believe they'll be tossed aside come 6am or whenever the first person shows up!  Seems to me, the "no friends on a powder day" mantra at least cuts to the chase, yet we all get along and smile together.

Certainly not looking to pile more work on to PB, but I don't think it would be an enormous undertaking by any stretch ... although I'm sure there'd be a transitional period which whereby people would need to get used to & accept randomization of the tarp line.

 
 

Sure thing ,FOS, aka Mr. Mundane.

Easy there Billy, its going to be alright 

[BillyBeru]

It'd sure be nice to turn back the clock to yesteryear and have a 4am "start time" be orderly and reasonable, but unfortunately it seems the genie is out of the bottle at this stage of the game.  A very slippery slope has emerged whereby a large number of people are all competing to be in the front of the pack & have pushed the limits beyond reason.

While randomizing the first 100 numbers might be a step in the right direction, I don't know that it'd put a sufficient road block to the slippery slope & it still doesn't address the "institutional advantage" a large camp would still have over couples/smaller_groups who would still be subject to not getting any sleep every night vs. big camps where people take turns with duties.

I agree that empty chairs which violate the rules should be tossed aside ... but this is a good example of how festivarian spirit and basic human nature can be at odds.  IOW, most people won't make the direct confrontation and will prefer to go with the flow of "good vibes".  Who wants to ruffle anyone's feathers?  Yet at the same time, some people are willing to make more "passive" incremental gains by pushing the envelope of established rules under the cloak of the masses.

By contrast, on a powder day, if people started lining up their skis/boards in the lift line the night before, you better believe they'll be tossed aside come 6am or whenever the first person shows up!  Seems to me, the "no friends on a powder day" mantra at least cuts to the chase, yet we all get along and smile together.

Certainly not looking to pile more work on to PB, but I don't think it would be an enormous undertaking by any stretch ... although I'm sure there'd be a transitional period which whereby people would need to get used to & accept randomization of the tarp line.

 
 

Sure thing ,FOS, aka Mr. Mundane.

Easy there Billy, its going to be alright 

Keep pushing it, FOM. Come out and tell everyone how you really feel about the Telluride Bluegrass Festival.

STFU