FOM: What you talkin' 'bout Willis?

[AnythingAtAll]

Hi FaceOnMars,

Not looking to call you out, just to take this to a different thread .

You wrote-

Was just making an observation about the institutionalized sanctioning of getting a 'leg up' in what is actually now a *quasi* GA situation.

Strange is your language and I have no decoder- care to elaborate?

Are you talking about the ticket lottery, existence of camps, tarp lines or my occasional nocturnal arboreal activities?  <== See, two can play at that game.  None of the above?

And just to clarify, I had nothing to do with your rating, thought it was funny also.

[FaceOnMars]

Hi FaceOnMars,

Not looking to call you out, just to take this to a different thread .

You wrote-

Was just making an observation about the institutionalized sanctioning of getting a 'leg up' in what is actually now a *quasi* GA situation.

Strange is your language and I have no decoder- care to elaborate?

Are you talking about the ticket lottery, existence of camps, tarp lines or my occasional nocturnal arboreal activities?  <== See, two can play at that game.  None of the above?

And just to clarify, I had nothing to do with your rating, thought it was funny also.

Didn't see your post prior to my last comment in the other thread.

Guess I just couldn't help but notice how what is certainly a friendly invite for those overseas to join a camp is also at the same time added security/insurance for a camp to secure prime tarp space by virtue of power in numbers to work the tarp line and such.  Maybe my quote wasn't worded well, but it just kind of struck me how even though this might not be the intention of the invite (I tend to believe Bevin's was honestly looking for the "whole package" as a friendly overture) ... I think it will play out in such a way in reality in relation to the tarp line.  Again, not saying it was intentional ... it's just that the international aspect of it struck a cord too in the sense that we're really seeing the communal/camp efforts gain traction on many different levels ... now in terms of geography (almost akin to US corps outsourcing overseas) ... again, not saying this is the reason for the invite!   

I know it's like beating a dead horse at this point, but couldn't help but make the observation ... which just kind of struck me ... and I don't believe it was hijacking, but rather a tangent on existing content.  Still, I'm willing to let this observation rest.  I had made a resolution to only raise new aspects re: the issue & not dwell ... so let the words be yours, I'm done with mine.

(I think Kirk [Shatner] threw the sleeping pill on the ground after spitting it out!)

[petefrane]

FOM I am not a dumb individual but I do have to say that I really never understand your
rants or what the purpose of your comments even mean     
Its as though you are looking to bicker or argue with someone for your own pleasure???
My own opinion but it seems kind of twisted for the people on this forum.

[AnythingAtAll]

Hey FOM,

It's so hard to write a post to a message board and cover the all bases, especially since we all don't approach things from the same perspectives, experiences or assumptions, which is perfectly natural.  I have no problem trying to bridge some of the gaps.  I'm part of Kamp Duk Tape (KDT) and, while I don't assume to speak for Bevin, I do think I can help with some context.

FOM wrote:

Guess I just couldn't help but notice how what is certainly a friendly invite for those overseas to join a camp is also at the same time added security/insurance for a camp to secure prime tarp space by virtue of power in numbers to work the tarp line and such.

I can assure you it's a friendly invite. There is some mutual benefit, which is exactly the point of organized/semi-organized camps to exist in TP, Warner Field, Illium... wherever, and power (in various aspects) is part of that package. Likewise, communities have some natural advantages over hermits.  I've attended TBF as a small family, small group and a camp (a large family.)  While all were nice, I prefer the camp.

However, KDT has grown enough in recent years that that the benefit of added security/insurance for the tarp line is not terribly significant, we would handle it with or without guests.  I believe it's a way to ensure that those interested in obtaining the benefits extended to them are also willing to reciprocate to benefit the camp.  This seems reasonable to me, given the equipment, common area, kitchen and instant fellowship being offered.

I also don't believe it's a hard/fast requirement- for instance if nightgrass, a health condition, weather or some other hardship came into play, we'd figure out another alternative.  Same if they had other talents and they were willing to contribute those instead of line-sitting.

For context, we're not involved in the line for the line.  The price is too high, as time in Telluride is too precious and no one in our group has wanted to dedicate that kind of time.  You'll typically find us on the camp side line between the old and new highway speed limits (55-75).  It gets us tarp turf in predictable though perhaps not premium spots at what seems to be a reasonable time trade-off.

[AnythingAtAll]

FOM wrote:

Again, not saying it was intentional ... it's just that the international aspect of it struck a cord too in the sense that we're really seeing the communal/camp efforts gain traction on many different levels ... now in terms of geography (almost akin to US corps outsourcing overseas) ... again, not saying this is the reason for the invite!   

Hmmm, not totally sure what you're getting at here, but- I believe the invitation was based on the observation that 1) Telluride lodging is expensive and (2 getting a reasonable amount of camping equipment into the States would be cumbersome and expensive so it was logical to extend the invitation to encourage a wider range of folks to put in for TP and Warner Field tickets, even though this is actually against our "gaming" interests. 

We have the equipment and are genuinely willing to act as TBF TP ambassadors (although our resources are limited,) we would simply like our new folks to acknowledge the benefits and to reciprocate by functioning as contributing members of the camp, but I'm of the opinion that we're offering more than we're asking.

Thanks for joining me over here on this thread.  Like I said, I don't mind explaining, debating, hashing things out, whatever you want to call it, I think it ultimately leads to a better understanding, even if we end up disagreeing. 

[landshark]

Opinions are free and free flowing. Fest can be as complex or as simple as you wish. So many words and nothing to say. What a waste of time. If you folks want to pick apart all posts you need a hobby.... Let it go. Trite.

Get the vibes movin in the right direction. 

[FaceOnMars]

Hey FOM,

It's so hard to write a post to a message board and cover the all bases, especially since we all don't approach things from the same perspectives, experiences or assumptions, which is perfectly natural.  I have no problem trying to bridge some of the gaps.  I'm part of Kamp Duk Tape (KDT) and, while I don't assume to speak for Bevin, I do think I can help with some context.

FOM wrote:

Guess I just couldn't help but notice how what is certainly a friendly invite for those overseas to join a camp is also at the same time added security/insurance for a camp to secure prime tarp space by virtue of power in numbers to work the tarp line and such.

I can assure you it's a friendly invite. There is some mutual benefit, which is exactly the point of organized/semi-organized camps to exist in TP, Warner Field, Illium... wherever, and power (in various aspects) is part of that package. Likewise, communities have some natural advantages over hermits.  I've attended TBF as a small family, small group and a camp (a large family.)  While all were nice, I prefer the camp.

However, KDT has grown enough in recent years that that the benefit of added security/insurance for the tarp line is not terribly significant, we would handle it with or without guests.  I believe it's a way to ensure that those interested in obtaining the benefits extended to them are also willing to reciprocate to benefit the camp.  This seems reasonable to me, given the equipment, common area, kitchen and instant fellowship being offered.

I also don't believe it's a hard/fast requirement- for instance if nightgrass, a health condition, weather or some other hardship came into play, we'd figure out another alternative.  Same if they had other talents and they were willing to contribute those instead of line-sitting.

For context, we're not involved in the line for the line.  The price is too high, as time in Telluride is too precious and no one in our group has wanted to dedicate that kind of time.  You'll typically find us on the camp side line between the old and new highway speed limits (55-75).  It gets us tarp turf in predictable though perhaps not premium spots at what seems to be a reasonable time trade-off.

AAA:  I have no doubt it was a friendly invite, and am sorry my post in the other thread (which I'll stop posting there) came across in any other way.  I also understand that camps are large communal entities with a "whole greater than the sum of the parts" - which are much more than simply a means to leverage power in numbers.  My post wasn't meant to be an attack on any of this, rather just an observation re: the incidental nature of how perpetual recruitment (in this case overseas) affects the dynamics of tarp situation as a whole.  Personally, I'm a hermit who bounces around and hang out with various friends, or will readily squat and make new friends ... so in actuality, I personally have very little skin the whole tarp game in a direct way. Perhaps, my online arch nemesis, BB :-) might say that ought to exclude me from having a say in the matter.

Maybe I simply have a bit of OCD when it comes to contending with what I believe to be "social inquities/imbalances" and have a difficult time letting things go.  I realize most people who even kinda agree with me will basically just accept it for what it is and play along.  In reality, this is what I do too.  I attend an insane number of shows of various kinds every year, so I also know things could be a lot worse re: tarps/chairs (i.e. Huck Finn) or the primo real estate being totally VIP'd out to the detriment of GA.  But even though the TBF has a 95% A+ positive review from me overall, the remaining 5% tarp issue is a relative biggie which I feel can be improved upon (i.e. randomization). 

I realize the whole tarp thing is a hot button issue which has been rehashed many times, but I believe it's for good reason ... it's probably one of the only major "issues" which people have a contention with regarding the operations of the festival and I think it's fair game to revisit in a constructive manner. Again, I apologize if my attempt to elucidate another facet via my dry sarcastic humor was taken the wrong way ... as it was DEFINITELY not meant to be an attack on Bevin or anyone who lives by the rules as they currently stand.

And yeah, landshark is right .... I too am often amazed at how many buttons I'll press on the keyboard on the 360 other days of the year.  I will try to keep my comments less obtuse and with greater constructive positivity.  And I know Mr. Rush will be monitoring me on this front ... hopefully, he takes my dry sarcastic humor with a grain of salt cuz when it comes down to it, I don't think we'd be all that far off on things that count.

[Hot Sugar]

Here's a good way to look at the Tarp Situation. I'll use Run a Muck as an example since that's where I camp. Run a Muck consists of roughly 30 to 40 people. If we weren't operating together, that would be at least 10 tarps getting placed just by those 30 to 40 people. As it is, we instead put out two tarps total for use by our camp. If we weren't working together, tarp spaces would be even harder to get for those who aren't a part of a large group.

Sure, we have enough people that no one has to spend more than one night in line or run a tarp more than once if they don't want to and that does give us an advantage, but to even suggest or imply that the only reason we camp together is for an advantage in the tarp department is completely incorrect. We camp together because we're a family and we want to be around each other. It's not for some advantage to get a better spot for our favorite artists. Asking someone from camp to sit in line is similar to asking a child to mow the lawn. It's doing one's part for the betterment of one's camp.

Simply another way to look at it.

[KaraJean]

 
Hi guys! It is so good to see all the familiar festivarian friends sharing and conversing.  It appears most have enjoyed a their summer fall and are thinking about the upcoming "events". Happy Holidays!

 Listening to: My Macah building a nest.

[FaceOnMars]

Here's a good way to look at the Tarp Situation. I'll use Run a Muck as an example since that's where I camp. Run a Muck consists of roughly 30 to 40 people. If we weren't operating together, that would be at least 10 tarps getting placed just by those 30 to 40 people. As it is, we instead put out two tarps total for use by our camp. If we weren't working together, tarp spaces would be even harder to get for those who aren't a part of a large group.

Sure, we have enough people that no one has to spend more than one night in line or run a tarp more than once if they don't want to and that does give us an advantage, but to even suggest or imply that the only reason we camp together is for an advantage in the tarp department is completely incorrect. We camp together because we're a family and we want to be around each other. It's not for some advantage to get a better spot for our favorite artists. Asking someone from camp to sit in line is similar to asking a child to mow the lawn. It's doing one's part for the betterment of one's camp.

Simply another way to look at it.

I think you're correct about some things kind of being a wash regarding the way some camps will consolidate space vs. had there been more smaller groups all seeking to spread out and perhaps taking up more space.  However, it's not necessarily the efficiency - or even empty tarp space - which rubs me the wrong way, but the ultra-competitive vibe & logistics which have embedded themselves into what ought to be simply a music festival ... a place to relax and let loose ... not ultra dedicated maneuvering to gain a leg up on one another (regardless if it's done in a friendly spirit).  I realize there's always going to be this sort of element at any high demand event with dedicated fans, but I just think it's gone too far in the case of the TBF and would like to see it done away with if possible.

But Billy is correct, this post is delaying my third visit to In-N-Out before the final Phish show in Vegas!

[Bevin]

I guess I would say that one person's "ultra-competitive vibe & logistics" can be another person's tradition. 

I run my tarp while wearing a chicken suit, so I believe I veer more towards tradition than competition.  And if you were ever to see how far back our traditional spot is, you'd maybe wonder why we even do the line and run a tarp at all. 

[swander99]

I run my tarp while wearing a chicken suit, so I believe I veer more towards tradition than competition.  And if you were ever to see how far back our traditional spot is, you'd maybe wonder why we even do the line and run a tarp at all. 

I'm impressed that I can follow along, and still have a clue what the bleeep this is about  ....gotta focus on the lotto now.
 Festivaaaaaaaaaal!


 Listening to: Radio Heartland

[HuckinFappy]

But even though the TBF has a 95% A+ positive review from me overall, the remaining 5% tarp issue is a relative biggie which I feel can be improved upon (i.e. randomization). 

If this is true, then I find your posts even more inane than I did before.   If you think something is 95% awesome, why are 95% of your posts related to the remaining 5%?   I don't know you from Adam (not that Adam, I knew him), but you come across as someone with a huge axe to grind, a one-issue voter, and someone who is always going to turn the thread to your own personal crusade.

If this was good old Usenet, I woulda' plonked you ages ago.   It's what I don't like about these message board formats....I can scroll past your messages, but with all the quoting and copying and pasting it's just not possible to completely ignore someone who won't hesitate to take a dump on any old thread.

If I did know you better, I'd buy you a small toy windmill and a small toy lance so you can practice tilting at real windmills, and maybe you'd let some of these others go.

Truth in Advertising:   I'm part of a big historical camp.   They do a tarp run for up front space which I almost never visit.   I get up at 4:30, get in line for a number in the 75-100 range, and end up right where I want to be, which is actually right behind Bevin, so you'd wonder about my sanity even more than his.

[FaceOnMars]

AAA:  I appreciate you addressing things in a non adversarial manner and trying to bring understanding to the forefront ... regardless of one's perspective on the matter ... even if some believe I'm acting like "The Gooch".

HF:  yeah, I guess I probably do come across as abrasive or annoying to some, but rest assured I'm not trolling nor seeking to irritate anyone.  Maybe I do have a bit of OCD on the issue, but it's only because it's a such a glaring negative anomoly (IMO) to what is otherwise a really positive and well run system ... and I know there's got to be a better alternative.   Moreover, it's an issue which ultimately affects everyone in so far as how we relate to one another in terms of personal space ... so it's not exactly as I'm harping on less consequential matters such as the art deco themes at the entrance.   I don't know, I thought my original post in Bevin's thread was simply dry passing humor ... guess I was naive or maybe didn't have enough forethought to realize that it could be taken the wrong way or result in the same merry go round.

Bevin:  I do get it how many will embrace the current system as tradition ... it's a part of human nature and can be turned into a postive thing (as you've described), but I don't believe that's a justification in it's own right.    A number of years ago, there used to be a tradition of people waiting at the top of lift 9 on the final day on the ski season and pelting the final 10 minutes or so of chairs with snowballs ... it was actually kind of fun and I got into it myself, but it also got way out of hand (with unsuspecting visitors getting hammered with iceballs and such) and eventually there were armed NFS officers stationed at the top & they put the kaibash on things ever since.

[BluegrassDustin]

Ok, Folks...

I think that's just the right amount of and for now...




Everyone line-up for the "good game" high fives, and let's go back to the locker room...