My observations of the line procedure

[completejohn]

Even tho I don't think anything is gonna change, here's an idea I had on the random number thang.  And just to keep it simple, I'll refer only to the Town Park/Warner Field tarp line.  

Every one already gets a wristband to attend, and every wristband already has a number on it.  If those wristbands were given out in a RANDOM order instead of sequentially, those numbers could be used to designate your daily line spot.  Though I don't know exactly how many TP/WF tickets there are, let's say there are 2,000 for this example.  On Thursday, the line would start with wristband 0001.  Friday 0500, Sat 1000, Sunday 1500.  

At 8 am (adjust times for actual gate openings), everyone lines up according to their wristband number and is presented with one of the normal line numbers.  The person with the numbered wristband would then be able to pass that number along to their tarp runner.  At 9 am, the number holding runners would move into position after holding up their CORRECTLY sized tarp for all to see (perhaps there would be a maximum sized tarp hanging on the fence to compare them to).  They would then have an hour to re-fold/roll.  At 10, cue the bagpipes and run like the wind!

The big camps would retain the ability to score great seats because they can look for the best wristbands amongst their entire group.  But even the people who come alone or in small groups would have the chance to sit close at least one or two days.  Smaller tarps (that we are already SUPPOSED to use) would give even more people a chance to get a great seat at least one of those days.

However I DO think humongous tarps should be allowed.  It's important that large parties of friends get to sit together and enjoy the music.  Just allow them ONLY behind the low-chair area.  The big camps could have a couple of smaller tarps up in the low-chair area, and their humongous one half-way back.  That way more people have a chance to get those primo seats.

Like I said, I don't think it's gonna change, but I thought I'd throw out the idea anyway.

[pavonismons]

Myself and one other person got in line each day 15 minutes before the gates opened to put our 2 reasonably sized tarps down for our group of 14 people.  We got the same great spot every day.  I don't think that would be the case on the regular entrance, but coming in from TP/Warner entrance was a lot easier than I had expected.

[helixer]

I've been reading about this for years. Limiting tarp size is the only way to make it work. Period. If anyone breaks the rules, security can walk up and tell you to remove it. If they'd enforce it, it would work. As Oddfired said, there's no way to drag around your family from temporary spot to temporary spot. That would not be enjoyable.
  I suspect the reason PB staff doesn't enforce this is because they don't want to, and I doubt it would be much fun for the security folks. BUT-- if they did it for just one year, it would get progressively easier.
  Every year when I write this, several people speak out against it (I know who they are, as I am friends with most of 'em!!) and they all have the big tarp system down, which works for them and their entourage. But it does not work for most of the others.
  I don't even have a dog in this fight (I work on lighting and sound ) I have a backstage pass. But my friends don't, and they think it sucks. I wholeheartedly agree with them.

 Listening to: Steve Earle

[coloradobgrass]

The tarp line/number system is rigged and feels like it's run by a small mafia. I saw several transactions of money for numbers. One guy had 5 numbers and sold the higher numbers for more money. Number 91 went for $60. Why do I have to get in line very early in the morning just to secure a spot??? Please change this PB!

[FaceOnMars]

I definitely see all of the issues here, but without tarps I think there would be a LOT more standing and the festival would be a very different experience, one that I am sure many would not enjoy as much. Maybe I'm wrong there.

That said, whatever the rule is, I don't see the point in making one without a plan to enforce it somehow. I'm all for optimism for the kindness of humanity, but it sounds like several of the rules need tending to, both in assessing what the rules are intended to accomplish and in assessing whether or not that accomplishment is achieved.

Tarps are fine.  I'm not sure why you would even want one at Red Rocks, but it's the assignment of the numbers for the tarp run that is an issue, not the tarps themselves.

I agree that the presence of tarps is not the issue, just brought up the recent change in policy @ Red Rocks because this thread was here now & I didn't want to "stir the pot" during the festival when this news broke last week.

At Red Rocks, tarps were purely a way of saving space in a GA setting (save for the occasional downpour where it provides nebulous shelter); however, it's not quite as clear cut at TBF, as some might argue it provides protection against the mud (when it rains) ... yet I believe it's mosty a way to save space for a group.  Which is fine to a point, but I think it's become abused as a means to implement quasi reserved seating in what is technically a GA situation.

The systems which have evolved have become extremely difficult to compete against unless one joins the game - only further escalating the competitive element in what ought to otherwise be a relaxing long weekend of music.

I believe some form of randomization -- which is non-transferable -- would go a long way to break up the "tarp mafia", IMO.

[oddfired]

The systems which have evolved have become extremely difficult to compete against unless one joins the game - only further escalating the competitive element in what ought to otherwise be a relaxing long weekend of music.

I believe some form of randomization -- which is non-transferable -- would go a long way to break up the "tarp mafia", IMO.

^^^What he said

[7beatspersec]

I agree with this being a huge problem that has been ignored for way too long.

They should at the very least enforce the 5x7 tarp policy. Need more space? bring more in line and line them up next to each other.

The tarp run is over in an hour, just have workers in the field enforcing it. its not that hard to do if you actually want to.

Everyone should make sure they do the  40th TBF  survey.

Let them know how you feel, its the only way to get it changed.

http://www.bluegrass.com/surveys/survey.php?sid=47

 Listening to: wncw

[helixer]

Good suggestion about filling out the survey. But what really needs to happen is for a staff member to explain why they do not enforce the tarp size policy. I can guarantee you that they know about the problem. Do they realize how much of a problem it is and how many people are upset about it? Doubtful. Once you get this answer, you will know why the policy is or isn't enforced.
  It's similar to a political campaign. You have two differing opinions, you have outside money and even lobbyists. TBF staff are the politicians, and they have plenty to deal with.
  The staff will generally comply with what the audience prefers. They want you (the majority) to be happy, so keep up this important issue and it will change.
  A great example of this occurred during the Stringdusters..did you see it? Many, who wanted to dance but were confined to the small side dance area ( or far in the back) rushed the stage to get closer and dance and were allowed to remain in the middle of the day!...Strength in numbers!
And of course even Travis Book ('dusters bass player) supported them by saying out loud "Sometimes you just gotta stand up for what you believe in!" No way security was going to counter all that...

 Listening to: Lucinda Williams

[oddfired]

Planet Bluegrass created this forum and they are an active part of it.  They will read these posts and they will reply.  If I were them, I'd be on a beach somewhere with my cell phone locked in the trunk of my car for at least a week.

[duffy]

7beat thanks for the link to the survey, my thoughts are now on the record.

faceonmars, i think the tarps really are the issue. planet bluegrass tries to promote sustainable festivation, but how many of these tarps are bought at walmart before the festival and then simply discarded afterwards? there is more plastic in those ugly things then i care to imagine. i would like to see more people using blankets and those super nice tarpestries because you know they will keep those things for future use. i don't know how anyone would want to go barefoot on a hot, sticky tarp all day.

[ferg]

OK, caught us.  Yes we're reading. But probably just logging notes in our head.

The idea about filling out survey is important.

There have been years where changes to line procedure, etc. were brought up to huge resistance. However, this is changing.

We are reluctant to change "traditions", and have had pretty good luck letting festivarians police themselves.

It is true we haven't been very actively enforcing a tarp size rule.

I know many on this list and staff as well have had this discussion over the years.

Seems entirely appropriate to have it again; first, fill out the survey!

We'll be back after we rinse the dust off (another very significant issue we need to address)....

 Listening to: cell phone ringing in locked trunk :)

[HuckinFappy]

True, the policy/rules are not "enforced" at all.  I understand the "You can't sleep here" rule, since it's not technically in the campground, so the town prohibits camping in the line.   So the Planet tells us not to, but it would be the town enforcing it....we're lucky they don't.

I don't understand the "you have to stay in line after getting your number" rule.  Since it makes no sense, and flies in the face of the general Planet attitude towards the lines ("Why don't you go have fun instead of standing in line?"), nobody respects it (on the TP side at least).   Mob Rules.

The fact that everyone just moved chairs back and forth all weekend to keep their position in the first 50 or so, is silly, but I don't care what they do.

For all the silliness, if I get in line from 4:30-5:00 every day, i can score the spot I want, or have my pick of good spots.

As for tarp size, I can't get worked up about it.  If they enforced the size, we'd just have more bodies running tarps together, so let 'em go.  I hang out wherever I want, and make lots of friends that way.    So let it go.

In summary, there are jerks in every system.   We have a system that allows for a certain amount of "work harder to get better spots", and at the same time is tolerant of a certain amout of jerkery.  It's not perfect, but it's a known jerkiness that we understand now.     

[FaceOnMars]

  A great example of this occurred during the Stringdusters..did you see it? Many, who wanted to dance but were confined to the small side dance area ( or far in the back) rushed the stage to get closer and dance and were allowed to remain in the middle of the day!...Strength in numbers!
And of course even Travis Book ('dusters bass player) supported them by saying out loud "Sometimes you just gotta stand up for what you believe in!" No way security was going to counter all that...

I arrived about 10 minutes late for the String dusters, but was kind of wondering why people were dancing in the very front catwalk.   Kind of appropriate, since I've noticed how the ropeline had inched further toward the sides at times; combined with tarps also doing the same, the dancing sections were getting a bit squashed out of existence ... save the one behind the soundboard, which aside from becoming dusty has started to attract a bit of a young "hipster" element the past couple few years.

duffy:  I agree that tarps are not exactly a "green friendly" element and would certainly like to see an alternative used (or none at all), but was commenting more regarding how tarps affect the equality of the common good in a GA setting if there's going to be an allowance for some sort of "space saver" in the first place.

HF:  I agree that the majority of people are not jerks, but there are plenty who push the envelope ... which kind of creates a situation which feeds upon itself.  Unfortunately, I believe this sort of competitive element has pushed the "work harder to get better spots" side of the equation to a feeding frenzy level whereas it's simply over the top.  Some have become accustomed to it ramping up over the years, relish it to an extent (in a lefthanded way), and know how to work the system .... so it might seem "normal" to regulars.  However, it seems to be a big turn off to some newcomers and those who simply don't want to deal with it anymore on an individual basis (or become recruited into a larger crew).  I personally believe the situation has unfortunately reached a boiling point and the deck needs to be shuffled (non transferrable randomization of numbers) so as extreme entropy of the "work harder" element is mitigated & no longer fuels the overall competitive element to such an extent.

[Davein VA]

There is a sign at the beginning of the line in Warner Field that lists the rules.  EVERY rule was flatly ignored an nobody cared.  .....The line/number policy is INSANE.  
The policy as it exists only benefits those who can pay people to sleep in line for them or large enough groups that can divide duties.

All that said, the music was OUTSTANDING.

The tarp line thing is an anachronism...there are better ways.  I know it's tradition...but so was the 8-track.

How about spray-painting and numbering boxes on the field and giving people random numbers and letting them find their spots; or randomly assigning line number at some specified time...and the size of the the tarps is annoying....5X7 or 10X20..is there a rule or isn't there?

Let's be creative PB..let's give everyone a chance and minimize the cheating and the line-sitting purchases and find a way to maximize everyone's time hearing music without having to sit in silly lines -- less lines, less hassle, more music time!

Loved the fest!!!!

[sarajomo]

I like the tarps.  We had two tarps- one for dancing and one for sitting. My friends rotated who sat in line everyday, and we always had one of the first 10 spots.  No conspiracy- just dedicated our time so we could get a good spot. 

Randomizing it will just make people mad.  Do you really want to randomly have to sit next to someone that doesn't want you to dance?  We were told multiple times to stop dancing....so the next day we moved our tarp to a different location.  Seems like it works to me. 

I still say great job PB for a killer fest!  I love going every year and I'm thankful for all the hard work you all put into making it a great one.