Important Festival Information: 5 X 7 Tarps

[Auntie Hope]

I really would not like the idea of volunteers directing tarp placement.  We have been coming for eleven consectutive years from Indiana.  Even though we sit back in the "High Back Seat" section, I still get in line each day at 4:00 am to just get the same spot.  We have friends from around the country join us at Telluride, all staying in different condos and hotels.  We gather each day on the tarp.  They know day after day, year after year where the tarp will be each morning.  If the festival would go to directing tarp placement, tarp placement would become somewhat random each day. 

Perhaps tarp size back where we sit has never been a problem.  I have never heard any of our neighbors mention anything about the size of each others tarp.

Pretty sure the "issue" of large tarps in previous years has been in the area of low-back chairs, and in front of the sound board tower.

Auntie Hope 

[FaceOnMars]

I really would not like the idea of volunteers directing tarp placement.  We have been coming for eleven consectutive years from Indiana.  Even though we sit back in the "High Back Seat" section, I still get in line each day at 4:00 am to just get the same spot.  We have friends from around the country join us at Telluride, all staying in different condos and hotels.  We gather each day on the tarp.  They know day after day, year after year where the tarp will be each morning.  If the festival would go to directing tarp placement, tarp placement would become somewhat random each day. 

Perhaps tarp size back where we sit has never been a problem.  I have never heard any of our neighbors mention anything about the size of each others tarp.

I didn't intend to use the parking lot situation as a perfect analogy ... and wasn't suggesting the volunteers to be directing where to place your tarp, but rather to help do away with physically competing for the best tarp space by effectively "throttling" the speed/flow of people carrying tarps to the available spot of one's own choosing ... kind of the way some highway on ramps have a traffic signal.   While it might take a little bit more time and coordination, in the grand scheme of things it wouldn't really be all that much more time/effort & would be significantly more fair (IMO).

[Bevin]

A 5'x7' tarp size limit, if enforced, could double or triple the size of both tarp lines.  I'm not sure we need everyone spending the night in line every night - the line situation is tough enough already.   

But the tarp size issue isn't the only thing we need to work through between now and June. 

We also need clarity on last year's last minute, game-changing, tarp run rule amendment regarding shelters and EZ-Ups.  Those tarp line security folks should be enforcing well-known, established tarp run rules, and not making up new ones at the last minute.

[completejohn]

Bevin -

I heard something happened along those lines last year, but I'm unclear what went down.  What exactly was it? 

[Hot Sugar]

A 5'x7' tarp size limit, if enforced, could double or triple the size of both tarp lines.  I'm not sure we need everyone spending the night in line every night - the line situation is tough enough already.   

In addition to what Bevin says, I feel the noble art of Tarp Hopping will actually suffer from enforcement of the 5x7 tarp rule. If people have less space for their crew, they'll be less willing to let strangers pull up a chair. I spent my first three festivals tarp hopping with two others and had a blast doing it. Now, as a member of a large camp in Town Park, I enjoy having extra room on our tarp for friends and a random assortment of tarp hoppers to join us. Most camps and groups with large tarps are very welcoming to the wandering tarpless. If they had to cut their space in half, however, they may be a little more protective of that space.

 Listening to: Infamous Stringdusters (Book them!)

[skyrunner]

In addition to what Bevin says, I feel the noble art of Tarp Hopping will actually suffer from enforcement of the 5x7 tarp rule. If people have less space for their crew, they'll be less willing to let strangers pull up a chair. I spent my first three festivals tarp hopping with two others and had a blast doing it. Now, as a member of a large camp in Town Park, I enjoy having extra room on our tarp for friends and a random assortment of tarp hoppers to join us. Most camps and groups with large tarps are very welcoming to the wandering tarpless. If they had to cut their space in half, however, they may be a little more protective of that space.

  Although I can see the issue from both sides, I will agree with Hot Sugar. I also wonder around tarpless. That's one the big reasons I keep coming back year after year. I meet some of the greatest people tarp hopping. That being said, I don't think it's going to take that long before the bigger crew's will simply put a couple of tarps together.  I think it just means more people in the tarp line, and morning line. If there is even that much of a change.

 Listening to: An online class

[Hot Sugar]

That being said, I don't think it's going to take that long before the bigger crew's will simply put a couple of tarps together.  I think it just means more people in the tarp line, and morning line. If there is even that much of a change.

And a lot of the bigger crews already do this. We usually run two tarps. Neither one of them is huge, however, I'm not sure if they meet the 5x7 rule.

[AnythingAtAll]

Alright, now we've got this thread rolling... 

A tarp size limit of any size isn't going to get any traction unless it has ultimately got some thought and functionality behind it. 

I apologize if I'm calling someone's baby ugly here, but here goes:

Let's consider some basic ergonomics:
1) a standard person sitting in a sloped low-back chair with legs extended (and a reasonable amount of "stuff") takes up  4' X 3' without being packed like sardines (try it yourself by sitting on 1x1 floor tiles)
2) a standard dancing person would take up at least that much.
3) a standard standing person will take up about 6 sq ft (3X2)

5X7= 35 sq ft

3X4=12     twelve times 3 equals 36

so mathematically, THEORETICALLY, in a way that doesn't really quite work in practice, the 35 square feet of a 5X7 will approximately accommodate about 3 sitting people comfortably and up to 6 standing as long as they don't dance too much (or they're very friendly)

Now do we, does the Planet and the community- really want a ratio between 1 in 3 to 1 in 6 inhabiting the tarp lines for the prime real estate?
Be sure to weight that more toward the 1 in 3, since there's generally more sitting than standing going on during the day and tarps become irrelevant as night progresses.

What say ye? 

[RockyMtnGuy]

Well put, AnythingAtAll.  Though I do like the idea of limiting tarp sizes, I think 5x7 is kinda small.  Maybe PB will consider altering the dimensions to no side greater than 10' / 120".  An 8 x 10 or 10 x 10 tarp will seat 8 to 10 folks, and has some room for tarp-hoppers (I'm going with the presumption that most Tarp Teams have 4-6 folks).  The point made regarding the increase in "runners" due to smaller sized tarps is a good one.  Unfortunately, there isn't an easy way to weed out the ungodly huge 20' to 40' monster tarps that have been creeping up over the years.  I believe a 10' max-length and/or width  tarp rule would be more acceptable to the masses and will prevent tarp-lines to the General Store .

v/r
  Kevin


 Listening to: ..himself thinking "Please don't let the PB servers crash Wednesday Morning!"

[landshark]

Oh REALLlllllyyyyyyyyyyyy. Tarp Police! With tape measures

What have we come to I say on you! Do the right thing adjust if you need to but be accountable and all grown up. Consider your fellow tarp mate and do not expect PBG to be a heavy, it would ruin the great vibe they send off. HOTDOG!!!! IS IT TIME YET!!! TARP SIZE are we talkin TARP SIZE ohhhhhhh  COUNT DOWN!

[AnythingAtAll]

Yep, we're talkin' tarp size.

Because PBG put the 5X7 thing in the email accompanying the tix, I brought it up here in an effort to discuss this waaaay ahead of time in hopes of avoiding exactly the type of thing Bevin talks about above.

  

[FaceOnMars]

I apologize if I'm calling someone's baby ugly here, but here goes:

Let's consider some basic ergonomics:
1) a standard person sitting in a sloped low-back chair with legs extended (and a reasonable amount of "stuff") takes up  4' X 3' without being packed like sardines (try it yourself by sitting on 1x1 floor tiles)
2) a standard dancing person would take up at least that much.
3) a standard standing person will take up about 6 sq ft (3X2)

5X7= 35 sq ft

3X4=12     twelve times 3 equals 36

so mathematically, THEORETICALLY, in a way that doesn't really quite work in practice, the 35 square feet of a 5X7 will approximately accommodate about 3 sitting people comfortably and up to 6 standing as long as they don't dance too much (or they're very friendly)

Now do we, does the Planet and the community- really want a ratio between 1 in 3 to 1 in 6 inhabiting the tarp lines for the prime real estate?
Be sure to weight that more toward the 1 in 3, since there's generally more sitting than standing going on during the day and tarps become irrelevant as night progresses.

What say ye? 

Lets assume your ergo math is at least in the ball park.  So, when PB released 500 extra tickets last year:

http://www.watchnewspapers.com/view/full_story/18110731/article--TELLURIDE-BRIEFS-400-More-Bluegrass-Tickets-Available-to-County-Residents-on-Thursday?instance=storybullets2

... this would require an additional 6000 sq feet to allow everyone to sit (or 3000 sq feet to stand).  The sitting portion would be 300' x 20'  (or 1/8 the size of a football field the long way).

It looks as if the 12k total tickets will stick for 2013:

http://www.telluridenews.com/articles/2012/11/30/news/doc50b8d1923753a150783373.txt

I could be wrong, but I believe the 11,500 figure has slowly crept up from closer to the previously held 10k - 10.5k mark over the past few years.

So, while I'm a fan of more space and at the same time also respectful of other's space, it appears that the powers that be have increased the number of rows of seats on this plane and in an equal / fair world we'll all have a little less legroom to make room for more festivarians on this craft ... unless it's kind of a Southwest thing where it's first come first serve and those who are on the plane first get to unbolt / rebolt the seat configuration to make more room for themselves.   I could go on with the (imperfect) analogy about taking the time to sleep outside overnight without getting bit by TSA .... but not looking to inflame, rather point out what seems to be overlooked in a conversation which has long taken place ... yet the variables have also changed.

In reality, I think anyone who's attended the past 2-3 years knows that:

- people's tarps are backing into the food lines
- people's tarps have spilled out further to the sides (especially up front)

... remember there used to be aisles next to the soundboard chain link fence - perpendicular to the stage?

So with smaller tarps more people will be waiting in line.  But follow this to the logical conclusion.  What if everyone did that?   Then everyone wouldn't wait in line ... since what's the point?

[landshark]

If you really want to break it all down correctly, omit dance space. 
 I think guide lines and stiff rules differ. I know I feel respected and unpoliced while I festivate. Lose and free to be me, just play nice. Pretty simple. The more complex and rigid folks make something to be, the more stiff and complex it becomes. Be careful here you could take the very thing that inspires fest for granted. People coming together for great music, sun and fun!

If you are all smart enough to break it down to the very inch then I am sure you folk can figure out fast that everything is relative. If only 4 folks can fit, well, guess you need another runner and tarp. Adjust. Jockey, position. After all, Fest is not for the spectator only

READY!








SET!












GO!

[Sunnyand70]

Well, you have to get to TP pretty darn late in the day for your tarp to back up into the food lines.

My family of 5 need a little bit more than 5x7 and I expect we'll get to have that with no complaints from our neigbors in an undisclosed location which we waltz into around 10:08 in the morning. Maybe a little later. We try to keep our size down to what we need and no more.

Next step is to find a nice space about 10 feet to either side of the cable protector in the front row for the acts we love up until the rush. I've seen and sat on both small and large tarps up front and loved the folks we've met who have all been so gracious.

I don't know, I kind of like it the way it is personally. 5x7 as a rule is one thing but in practice would kind of suck.

 Listening to: Greensky

[Bevin]

Bevin -

I heard something happened along those lines last year, but I'm unclear what went down.  What exactly was it? 

It was a case of security overreacting to whiners who rolled in late and wanted to set up a Kelty and found Kelty spots in the back held by unoccupied tarps.  Wow, an unoccupied tarp in the back - an earth-shattering complaint, I'm sure.  Those empty tarps in the back must have wrecked someone's weekend, marriage, job, life, etc. for security to decide it was necessary to preform their Sunday morning rectal-cranial inversion. 

As a result, on Sunday morning, while we were queued up waiting for the bagpipes to start, security decided that if anyone was going to take a shelter in (Kelty, EZ-Up) then it had to go in during the first rush, and not follow a tarp runner.  In other words, we couldn't reserve an EZ-up space with a tarp, even when the EZ-up was coming in 5 minutes behind the tarp.  It was a rude, last-minute change of plans that was completely unwarranted and unnecessary and made the first wave of tarp rush more hazardous than it had to be.  But Festivarian safety wasn't the concern - satisfying some latecomer whiner was the issue, as it was explained to me.