sleeping in line and oversized tarps

[Auntie Hope]

Matt bout rapped up the snake image like I saw it.  I still gotta bit of prompt for opening up the dining lawn over yonder there.  Only way to do that is with tarps like recommended, what is the current size?  10X20 gives ample room for eight, ten tight?  I suppose 8X10 is a four top.  I thought the size was posted?  Peeps doubling up on Shade Hs. and tarp I suppose is inevitable, as groups intermingle.  Which I suppose is a good thing, keeps down the inbreeding.  It's a darn good time as it was, seems to change a little each year.
                                                                                     

 
 

[FestiTrey]

First off, I do believe both the tarp size and sleeping in line are issues.  And I think the easiest way to fix the issue is just tell everyone to follow the golden rule and “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”  Unfortunately, that doesn’t always work in reality because where there is a group of people, there will always be some who abuse their rights.  Sad but true.

My take on the issue is similar to helixer’s opinion.  No matter how much people preach the “tarp hopping is okay” principle, there are going to be a lot of people who aren’t comfortable with doing it.  Additionally, there is a logistical issue for larger groups of people.  Our camp had 18 people in it last year and we wanted to experience the festival together (with our newfound friends of course) but there was no way we could get 18 people to all tarp hop together…even if we were all comfortable doing it.  And I wouldn’t have an issue with the large tarps if they were full, but they only seem to be sparsely occupied more often than not.  

The tarp line situation is also a little out of control.  The line has become a 24x7 game.  Yes, it is all about playing and manipulating the game.  You either pay a group of local kids to sleep in line for you (yes, the reality is the vast majority of people in that line are sleeping) or you have to share the responsibility with the rest of your camp to wait in line.  However, it basically eliminates the possibility of getting your tarp in the front if you don’t have a large group.  And even then, our group conscience told us it wasn’t right to make a kid sleep in line for us, and out of respect to everyone in our group’s festival experience, we didn’t think anyone in our group should have to sleep in line.  

So what’s the solution?  For the tarp line issue, I think Planet Bluegrass could have a series of periodic lotteries at set times each morning.  I envision it working something like this…the first lottery would start at 5am and everyone that was there at 5am got a color-coded card (say red for this example) with a random number on it.  It wouldn’t matter if you were there at 3am or at 5am as long as you were there when the cards were handed out.  Then, at 6am they would hand out a different color card (say blue) with random numbers on them to everyone who was there at 6am…etc, etc.  Then, when it was time to get in line for the land rush, all those with red cards would get to go first in numeric order, then those with blue cards would get to go in numeric order, etc.  That way, if you were willing to be there at 5am, you are still guaranteed a good spot even if you don’t get the best spot.  It also makes it pointless to sleep in line and/or have people staying in line 24x7 while the festival is going on.  And probably most importantly, it prevents the exact same groups from being in the front row every single day...spreads the love.

For the tarp size issue, there could be two sections based on the tarp size.  The front section enforces tarp sizes of no larger than 8x10…and only one tarp per person.  If I were designing it, I would designate the “front” section as the area in front of the walkway.  Behind the front section, you can have larger tarps but still only allow one tarp per person.  For those with larger groups where a single 8x10 tarp would be too small but you still wanted to be in front, then more than one person would need to get a number in the lottery and then they could just put down there tarps right next to each other if the wanted.

Yeah, I know it may not be a perfect solution.  However, instead of arguing about whether or not it is a perfect solution, just consider if it is a better solution for festivarians as a whole (not just you and/or your camp) and their overall festival experience.  Anyhow, that is my 2 cents on the situation.  The festival has become the best 10 days of my year and it has been a very special place to me and several of my friends (I even got engaged at the festival last year)…and because of our experiences there, we are actually getting married in Telluride this fall as well.  I just say that because I love the festival, I love the vibe, and most importantly I love the people…so I make these suggestions out of love for the festival and wanting to maximize the enjoyment for festivarians as a collective group.  

Can’t wait to boogie with you guys again in June!    

[Hot Sugar]

FestiTrey, I don't think the lottery you suggest could work if you're also limiting tarp sizes. For groups as large as yours or mine, you would need at least two tarps, and if the numbers are randomly distributed, the two runners wouldn't be able to get their tarps close to each other. And like you said, not being able to spend the day with your friends would suck.

[Cindy Lou]

Once the sun goes down it really doesn't matter how big or small a tarp is, since tarps are picked up and the crush of the crowd moves forward.  I like being up front and appreciate the efforts of my campmates who make that possible, but the last few years at sunset I have gone back to camp and watched/listened from there, because I'm so short I can't see the stage! A few times I tried to get back to where the tarp was, where my friends were, so I could see the headliners, but couldn't even get close because it was so packed in. I sure didn't let it keep me from enjoying what I was there for, and that is to  listen to some amazing musicians playing their hearts out for the fans who have come to see/hear them.
I've been going to TBF since 1976 when there was no dispute, only dancing and grooving to the music. I don't recall if there were any tarps then, maybe just a few. This tarp size/tarp line debate will never satisfy everyone fully, so please ya'll, just give it a rest and put all this energy and thought into getting excited to see friends and musicians again in the beautiful setting that is Telluride, and making some new ones while we're there.  It is still magical and wonderful, we are there for just a short time, so let's not get any bad vibes going over and over something that, in the end, is just one small aspect of the entire festival. Let's smile, laugh, dance, breathe, and be grateful to just be alive and together again. It is, after all, a FESTIVAL. Being there is a gift, not a right. Planet Bluegrass gives us this wonderful gift, yet we complain on how it's wrapped instead of focusing on what is inside.  That's not very gracious or appreciative in my opinion.
Just my 20 cents. (amount has been adjusted for inflation.) 

[AnythingAtAll]

FestiTrey, I don't think the lottery you suggest could work if you're also limiting tarp sizes. For groups as large as yours or mine, you would need at least two tarps, and if the numbers are randomly distributed, the two runners wouldn't be able to get their tarps close to each other. And like you said, not being able to spend the day with your friends would suck.

Actually a lottery for the tarp line would have a couple of effects.  Large camps would still have a statistical advantage that they enjoy today without nearly as much individual effort, but to get that advantage, they would need more of their members to participate.  More members in lottery, keep your top 1, 2 or 3 numbers only, whatever you need.

Tarp size limitations probably wouldn't be necessary at all, it would be a choice- a more manageable size tarp run by one could get you right up front.  With a bigger tarp or two tarps needing two runners, if you didn't pull two close numbers and wanted to be together, 1st falls back with 2nd.  You might not get right up at the very front, but you could still get an excellent spot and all be together.

I don't expect any changes to result from these discussions any time soon (or even ever), but I do think it's healthy to have a respectful and thoughtful dialogue. 

This issue keeps coming up for obvious reasons- like it or not- the current system is based solely on desire, and desire keeps pushing the envelope.  That's OK if that's really the way the community wants it.  But for a festivarian atmosphere that's egalitarian in so many aspects, the current method (tradition or not) stands apart by contrast.

No bad vibes, respect to all, it's a great experience and I'm good with it whichever way the wind blows, but just sayin'...
 

[FestiTrey]

I’m not entirely sure how coming up with new ways to improve the festival is deemed to be ungrateful, but that is way off.  I’m very grateful for the work that Planet Bluegrass does in putting this festival together.  I guess I compare it to a business, and the ones that are most successful are the ones who are constantly trying to find ways to improve themselves.  It’s not because the employees are ungrateful or have an issue with the company, but it is actually the opposite and they want the best for the company.  It is the companies who say “we just do it this way because that’s the way we’ve always done it” that find themselves in bigger issues down the road.  Sorry, that is the consultant in me coming out.  But whether we like it or not, times are changing and the festival is changing as well (look no further than ticket demand this year), and at some point, the “rules” may also need to be evolved for the good of the festival. 

I’m also aware that my suggestion would be unpopular with the larger, more established camps who have had their large tarps in the front row for years.  And I also realize that a large number of people on this board are well established with those camps.  However, if you polled all 10,000 festivarians after telling them reality of the situation, I have a strong feeling the majority would say there was an issue with the current system.

Hot Sugar – I disagree that it wouldn’t work for larger camps.  It would just force you to make a decision.  If you had to put down two tarps and you had two people drawing numbers at 5am, then you could either decide to allow the first runner to get the best spot possible, or wait for their buddy so they could put them down together.  However, if you were both a part of that first lottery group, you will be guaranteed a good spot even if you wait on your buddy.  Yeah, it may not be the very front row, but it would still be a very good spot.  Of course if you did split up, you always have the option to tarp hop to a tarp next to your buddies if it was unoccupied.

I’ve been going to the festival for several years now and this will be my 4th year in a row in Town Park.  I can’t say what it was like before my time, but I’ve definitely witnessed “the tarp game” during my years at the festival.  I know that the line isn’t technically supposed to start until the end of the last show…however, I also know that people just move their chairs from the line to the volleyball court in the morning to start an unofficial line, so in reality the line is always there.  And even though nobody may be occupying those chairs, you would definitely create quite a stir if you came and sat in front of all of those empty chairs.  I also know that kids are getting paid to sleep in line for camps…I’ve seen it first hand and I’ve also heard camps talking about the kids they’ve found to sleep in line for them. 

And the tarp size issue creates an interesting crowd dynamic.  During the vast majority of the festival, the density of the crowd is much greater towards the middle and back of the festival.  The front section is populated with these very large tarps that are sparsely populated for the majority of the festival and the further you go back, the denser the crowd becomes because those groups stay at the festival all day (unlike those of us in TP or WF who can easily come and go from camp).  I know that it corrects itself when the sun goes down and when a handful of bigger acts play during the day, but I perceive those to be the exceptions. 

I know that change is not always welcomed, but I think if we focused on the overall experience for the average festivarian, not just those in large camps and not just those on this board, there are some changes that could be made to improve the experience for the overall group.  Anyhow, like I already said, I only suggest these changes because I love the festival and want it to be the best it can and not trying to send any bad vibes. 

[FestiTrey]

Actually a lottery for the tarp line would have a couple of effects.  Large camps would still have a statistical advantage that they enjoy today without nearly as much individual effort, but to get that advantage, they would need more of their members to participate.  More members in lottery, keep your top 1, 2 or 3 numbers only, whatever you need.

I agree if the larger camps had multiple people pull a number, they would have a higher statistical change of getting a tarp up front.  However, it prevents it from being a guarantee.  And it also would require more of their camp to get involved if they wanted to be up front.  Right now, they can have a single person essentially guarantee them a spot in the front row.  I am completely aware the system I've proposed isn't perfect, but I at least see it working better than the current system.

[Iriecycle]

I like the lottery idea, in that I think it is important to try out a good idea.  Why does an idea have merit, because it has a higher percentage of win - win.  Where we to go lottery there would need to be ample time between lottery time and gates open time for people to trade who wanted to be together/ whatever.  Interaction is a large part of the festival experience, refining chops of respect and patience.  I still think 8x10's are too small for most 10 year + groups, create more edges to trip over when dancing.  The line causes folks to sit outside the fest and focus energies farther from the music.  The ideas of bringing more people closer to the music, of benefit.  The ideas of freeing up the fest to the fortunate newbie who draws a low number and finds themselves in the midst of the tarp run, memorable, positive, and resting in chance.  Mixing it up each year is refreshing to all.  We'll find out what works and what doesn't.  Let's face the fact that assurance is human control, chance brings us emotion, roll with it.  PB wants the best festival possible.  They are on the field watching as we throw down, checking chair heights, tarp sizes, etc. each morning.  Keeping hostility from rising is probably the most important job of security, and many festevarians are a good part of the security.  We've all got the potential to be violent.  Certainly the best correction is self.  Is having the same people up front each day fair?  Are the number of years a person has been present any entitlement?  What gives a person entitlement?

 Listening to: Grateful Dead - 6/27/84

[Auntie Hope]

  Is having the same people up front each day fair? 

If the same folks get their backsides out of camp and get in the Tarp Line, then yes, those same folks are playing fair because they are playing by the rules currently set in place by Planet Bluegrass. Trust me, the bigger the camp, the bigger the party, and the harder it is for anybody to leave the party and get in that Tarp Line. There was actually a large camp that did not run a tarp last year on Sunday morning because the party was that great on Saturday night.

Are the number of years a person has been present any entitlement? 

You know folks, there has only been one non-staff, non-musician person that's received an "entitlement" from this festival, and from the stories that have been told around Town park, it was well deserved.

There is no sense of entitlement being presented by the tarp line. There is no sense of entitlement being presented by any mulit-year Festi-Vet. There is no sense of entitlement (although there is much heartbreak) for tickets. There is however, a very historical account of gained knowledge as to what it takes to have the ultimate Festival Experience at TBF. Plain and simple, if you would like to have that knowledge, keep coming back, keep scrambling for those tickets, keep getting up and out of camp and drop that chair in place so you too can possibly run to your death at 8,750.

I've personally witnessed one very seasoned Festi-Vet have someone run up to him, only to be told, "so & so has put down a chair". One glance at a watch told us it was 3 p.m. on Festi-Day ONE. The Shellman Stage was barely warm and the "Pre-Line" had already begun. "This is out of control" were the next words I heard. Yes, even the die-hards have a problem with "the line" at times.

The fact remains though, this is how we festivate. As BB stated earlier, Work Hard, Play Hard, and quite frankly, that is one of the unwritten rules of TBF, like it or not, that's Festi-Life.

Eliminate the "Pre-Line"? That's a possibility.

What gives a person entitlement?

Nothing. Absolutely NOTHING gives any Festivarian an entitlement to TBF, sans one. BUT, you are entitled to take part in one of the best experiences you will EVER have in your life. If you do not want to take part in this Work Hard, Play Hard experience, please, PLEASE let me know. I am currently aware of 70 people that would like to have YOUR ticket to TBF!

In short, grow up & quit yer bitchin'. Life isn't handed to you on a silver platter and neither is Festi-Life, Festi-seating, and while I'm on the subject, the line for a corn-dog, Killer Flank Steak, Sister's Dumplings, Free Water, or the line at Baked in Telluride, is going to be VERY long at times, so plan for those events during your Festi-life while your at it.

Hope we see you in June. If not, sorry you decided you coldn't to suck it up like the rest of us.

Auntie Hope 

[landshark]

PEOPLE PEOPLE! WORK WITH ME!!! This energy, woof
Hope you are on fire

Lets put all this good energy into one big huge push for flippin fun in the sun and great music. Who cares, too much energy on such a small detail.

I've got two words for all of you


wait for it,















Astro Turf

 Don't make me come down there !

[JoeBu]

Landshark....you beat me to my joke.  I had the same one except......wait for it




ONE GIANT TARP!



I come from a different perspective, I generally come to TBF with a giant group consisting of just my wife and I.  We've stayed at Mary E in the past and that alone pretty much eliminated us from participating in the Tarp Line madness.  But this year is our first year @ Warner and we've expanded our group to a whopping 3 people....which once again pretty much eliminates us from participating unless we don't plan on seeing a 1/3 of our group for an extended period of time.  So whats a guy to do?  I figure I got 2 options:

1) Complain on the internet...duh! 
2) Wait until June and introduce myself to some fine people...buy a couple beers, do a little dance, get down tonight
3) Sit in the back and wonder who all the freaky people are up front.

I choose #2, maybe I can bring a little something to the table and be a part of a bigger group with better tarp skills some time in the future.   

I kind of like how the festival encourages community interaction.  I'm relatively new to the fine state of CO and didn't bring 20 existing friends with me so it's always nice to meet new ones....which is #14 on the list of 300 reasons why this is the best festival in the land.


 Listening to: Run Like An Antelope* *w/ Simpsons Tease just now.

[Mel]

This really does seem like a dead horse to me.

In order to influence change, it seems that there should be a problem.  So far, I don't see much of a consensus that there is a problem.    A couple of folks trolling around to stir the pot doesn't mean that there is an actual problem.

To me, why should we create more rules that must be enforced and managed???  Then how do you handle the folks who don't agree with the rules?  Create another level of management with a tribunal?  Vote them off the island?

Sleeping in line - wake them up!

Huge tarp that isn't loaded to capacity - come and sit with me, I'll get Hooch to give you a dose of the Frog, and you won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

At what point do you stop making rules?  You can't make people obey the Golden Rule, why add more rules for people to ignore? 

I've run the tarp, I've muled the tarps, I have sat in the lines (I can't sleep there), I've missed out on getting a number because I couldn't leave the party.  I've plopped down on our tarps and invited others to join, I've been a squatter on someone else's tarp.  All of it is part of the experience.

Don't be surly, join us, drink the kool-aid (Woof) and have fun!!!

 

I honestly have bigger problems to worry about, I'd hope you do too!

Mel

[helixer]

Hey, it's obvious everyone here means well, and it's also obvious that most people on this forum are the 'core' of the TBF fam. That's cool. I am too, and I've been to many shows since the late 70's.
  Nonetheless, I haven't hear ONE, not one good reason not to limit the tarp size. Yep, everyone sez quitchyerbitchin and all but they are probably part of a big ol family that gets a big ol tarp.
  If you absolutely HAVE to have a big tarp to be happy, with all that unused space between each other, then do so behind the walkway like Festi said.
  I've paid attention, and I look around every year. The big tarps are MOSTLY EMPTY MOST OF THE TIME!! That's the truth my friends. Don't try and tell me otherwise becuz I see it with my own eyes.
  Again, it's simple: mark off a strip made for smaller tarps. OK, so if 8x10 is too small maybe 10x10...I dunno. But there are 10,000 people at this fest and there are at least 2,000 empty spots up front at any given time. The rule about sitting on other's tarps doesn't work for people for the reasons I stated earlier. That too my friends is the reality.

 Listening to: Marcus Roberts

[BillyBeru]

Hey Telluride Tom, can you obliterate this topic since it was started by "Local" who quit the forum.

I'm getting sick and tired of this topic. I heeded Cindy Lou's advice and deleted the poll about tarp size since she's right - too much negativity is being generated. Time to move on!

[Mel]

Billy -

Take a look at your post count.  You're the devil.