how long has scalping been legal?

[johnny]

I used to think scalping was illegal.  Obviously it's not anymore.  I'm really glad I got my Warner tickets when they went on sale, but I looked at ebay out of curiosity, and 1 warner field ticket was at $500 with a day to go.  Some people were asking $500 for single day tickets, albeit with no bids (yet).  A quick search of Craigslist showed a pile of people wanting tickets and only 1 person with 4 day passes for sale, for $425 (firm).  No camping.  My friends make fun of me for planning so much, and sometimes I want to punch my own self in the face, but boy am I glad I planned ahead for this or I'd be staying home. 

I wanted to go to a Twins game this summer because Target field is cool, but tickets are pretty much sold out (unless you want to sit by yourself).  The only option is this ridiculous 'stub hub' where you can get about any tickets you want for 2-3 times face value.  I can't bring myself to pay it, though I could afford to do it for one game.  I understand supply and demand (I have to teach it to middle and high schoolers every year) so I know that this is what these tickets are 'worth', but I still thinks it's bullcrap. 

Besides not buying these scalped tickets, what else can we do? 

 Listening to: 40 mile an hour winds from the north

[hipchc]

Report those bastards to the Planet!! I believe they go after them somehow... At least make them aware that scalping is NOT in the festivarian spirit!!

[hipchc]

http://denver.craigslist.org/tix/2310181909.html

He even put his phone number for people to text him about the THREE 4-day passes at $425 each.. 714-206-6764

Jerk!!

[Debbiefromtucson]

Well, should we all text him to tell him what we think about his price................might cure him! LOL

[ShatteredArm]

I think scalping is legal in some form or another in most (or all) states.  Usually they only have regulations as to how close to the entrance you are allowed to sell the tickets.

I suggest just coming to terms with the fact that they're a part of life.  They exist whenever demand for an event exceeds capacity.  They do serve a function that is useful to some people; that is, those who didn't get tickets to an event before it sold out can get in for a higher price.  Those of you who didn't get tickets before they sold out shouldn't blame scalpers, because more than likely, you wouldn't have gotten tickets anyways...they would just belong to someone who is less willing to sell them to you.  The other advantage of the secondary ticket market is that if the scalpers overestimate demand, you can actually get into the event for less than face value.

[Hooch]

I think this topic came up a couple years ago.  The laws, if I remember, vary state to state.  Not sure there is much Planet Bluegrass can do about scalpers legally.  What we can do is refuse to buy the tickets if they are over face value.  Unfortunately the number of festivarians on this forum is very very small compared to the 10,000+ that come to the festival and I'm sure many pay big $$ for their tickets. 

[FaceOnMars]

I think scalping is legal in some form or another in most (or all) states.  Usually they only have regulations as to how close to the entrance you are allowed to sell the tickets.

I suggest just coming to terms with the fact that they're a part of life.  They exist whenever demand for an event exceeds capacity.  They do serve a function that is useful to some people; that is, those who didn't get tickets to an event before it sold out can get in for a higher price.  Those of you who didn't get tickets before they sold out shouldn't blame scalpers, because more than likely, you wouldn't have gotten tickets anyways...they would just belong to someone who is less willing to sell them to you.  The other advantage of the secondary ticket market is that if the scalpers overestimate demand, you can actually get into the event for less than face value.

I personally don't condone scalping & would rather listen to it on KOTO vs. paying over face which is basically a vote to say "yeah it's OK, do it again next year".

Scalpers typically have zero intention of seeing the show & insert themselves into the transaction process to the detriment of those who DO have a genuine desire to attend said event.  What if the Town of Telluride suddenly decided to purchase up all TBF tix they could get their hands on & resell them at 200% markup as a means of generating revenue for the town?  I know it's a silly example, but it kind of drives the point home that it's not an activity or market which CREATES something ... rather it's one which EXTRACTS to the detriment of those who have a true desire to attend the event.

Personally, I prefer not to embrace the perspective you've outlined ... as it kind of allows the practice to flourish.  I'd be well into any above board hard core tactic to mitigate scalping!  (i.e. one needs their credit card used to make purchase in hand to have wristband placed directly on hand, etc.)

[ShatteredArm]

I personally don't condone scalping & would rather sit up on tomboy the entire festival vs. paying over face which is basically a vote to say "yeah it's OK, do it again next year".

Scalpers typically have zero intention of seeing the show & insert themselves into the transaction process to the detriment of those who DO have a genuine desire to attend said event.  What if the Town of Telluride suddenly decided to purchase up all TBF tix they could get their hands on & resell them at 200% markup as a means of generating revenue for the town?  I know it's a silly example, but it kind of drives the point home that it's not an activity or market which CREATES something ... rather it's one which EXTRACTS to the detriment of those who have a true desire to attend the event.

Do those who are willing to pay 200% of face value have less desire to attend the event?  This is just simple economics--any time scalpers are making money, the price of the event is too low.  There aren't really too many options: (a) raise the price of the event to the most economically efficient level, so anybody who both wants in and can afford it can get in; (b) somehow remove scalpers from the equation (impossible) so it's first come, first serve, but exclude anybody who wasn't able to get tickets on time, or who weren't sure if they could make it; (c) status quo, with some measures to give everybody a fair chance (e.g., four ticket limit), and allow those who are late to the game to pay a premium.

Personally, I prefer not to embrace the perspective you've outlined ... as it kind of allows the practice to flourish.  I'd be well into any above board hard core tactic to mitigate scalping!  (i.e. one needs their credit card used to make purchase in hand to have wristband placed directly on hand, etc.)

Whether you embrace it has no effect on whether the practice flourishes.  Economics is what causes it to flourish. 

In some ways, scalpers actually make things *cheaper* for those who are late to the game.  Imagine if everybody who had tickets legitimately wants to go.  How much more difficult would it be to buy a ticket from one of those people, who made travel plans, took days off work, etc., than from a scalper?  If I were to sell my ticket, I'd need to cover my condo rental... So, $155 for the ticket, $1400 for the condo... Would I even sell it for $1,500?  Probably not; I'd rather go to the concert than have a free condo rental.  $2,000?  Maybe we're talking now.  The scalper, on the other hand, might sell you his ticket for just $800.  He doesn't want to get stuck with that ticket, which becomes worthless after the event is over.

[rettlerSCI]

I don't agree with scalpers at all, but I will say that we all did have a chance to buy tickets, we all actually could have bought Warner field tickets, they were for sale, and if you wanted to grab them in December you could have.  Its to bad now that it sold out fast, but when it comes to any show I plan on seeing, I don't wait around to see if it s going to sell out.

[iabluegrassboy]

I don't agree with scalpers at all, but I will say that we all did have a chance to buy tickets, we all actually could have bought Warner field tickets, they were for sale, and if you wanted to grab them in December you could have.  Its to bad now that it sold out fast, but when it comes to any show I plan on seeing, I don't wait around to see if it s going to sell out.

Well said Rettler.  Telluride is the #1 festy where this is true.  You have an inordinate amount of time to return tickets, and you always know you can dump your tickets to a fellow festivarian on the forum if something comes up.  Scalpers suck and we can't support them, but I buy my tickets for Telluride before them so I don't have to worry about it.

[FaceOnMars]

I personally don't condone scalping & would rather listen to it on KOTO vs. paying over face which is basically a vote to say "yeah it's OK, do it again next year".

Scalpers typically have zero intention of seeing the show & insert themselves into the transaction process to the detriment of those who DO have a genuine desire to attend said event.  What if the Town of Telluride suddenly decided to purchase up all TBF tix they could get their hands on & resell them at 200% markup as a means of generating revenue for the town?  I know it's a silly example, but it kind of drives the point home that it's not an activity or market which CREATES something ... rather it's one which EXTRACTS to the detriment of those who have a true desire to attend the event.

Do those who are willing to pay 200% of face value have less desire to attend the event?  This is just simple economics--any time scalpers are making money, the price of the event is too low.  There aren't really too many options: (a) raise the price of the event to the most economically efficient level, so anybody who both wants in and can afford it can get in; (b) somehow remove scalpers from the equation (impossible) so it's first come, first serve, but exclude anybody who wasn't able to get tickets on time, or who weren't sure if they could make it; (c) status quo, with some measures to give everybody a fair chance (e.g., four ticket limit), and allow those who are late to the game to pay a premium.

Personally, I prefer not to embrace the perspective you've outlined ... as it kind of allows the practice to flourish.  I'd be well into any above board hard core tactic to mitigate scalping!  (i.e. one needs their credit card used to make purchase in hand to have wristband placed directly on hand, etc.)

Whether you embrace it has no effect on whether the practice flourishes.  Economics is what causes it to flourish. 

In some ways, scalpers actually make things *cheaper* for those who are late to the game.  Imagine if everybody who had tickets legitimately wants to go.  How much more difficult would it be to buy a ticket from one of those people, who made travel plans, took days off work, etc., than from a scalper?  If I were to sell my ticket, I'd need to cover my condo rental... So, $155 for the ticket, $1400 for the condo... Would I even sell it for $1,500?  Probably not; I'd rather go to the concert than have a free condo rental.  $2,000?  Maybe we're talking now.  The scalper, on the other hand, might sell you his ticket for just $800.  He doesn't want to get stuck with that ticket, which becomes worthless after the event is over.

SA:  not looking to give you a hard time or argue about the economics of supply and demand, I get it.   Although I don't believe scalping is a result of the prices being too low, but rather a function of throttling the sales of a limited good/service to actual attendees vs. those who are seeking to profit off of others desires.  I just think scalping can be curtailed & personally I don't embrace the practice as being either valuable nor ought there be a sense of "entitlement to free (after) market options" with respect to limited supply.  In almost all respects, I'm a firm believer in the free market .... but re: shows, I think there's something entirely different with respect to 'brokering'.  Not to sound harsh, especially given that many were caught by surprise, but the simple fact of the matter is that when you snooze you loose on tickets.   

Phish's ticketing policy for the show in Telluride last summer is a great example how scalpers could be more effectively removed from the equation to a much larger degree:  locals had to show ID at point of purchase and to have the wristband placed on their wrist.   A majority of the general sales tix limited the card holder to a max purchase # and required the cardholder to be present with card to receive wristbands which went DIRECTLY on cardholder's wrists (and any one else in the group had to be present to have their wristband placed on the their wrists).  I think there were like 2k paper tix per day floating around ... which were basically the only 'transferrable' ones out there.

If plans change and the original & legitimate ticketholder can't go, then they could make it available for resale / transfer only via a restricted conduit/authority (i.e. Planet Bluegrass or designated third party) ... who might charge a small fee for the time & resources.

[fundirector23]

Scalping is big business.  However, it is one thing that you can avoid by NOT SUPPORTING.  Don't buy tickets over face value--period.  Unless it includes a backrub or something.

[BillyBeru]

Do those who are willing to pay 200% of face value have less desire to attend the event?  This is just simple economics--any time scalpers are making money, the price of the event is too low. 

Face on Mars, well said.

I'm going to use those degrees I paid for and attempt to discuss the above comment. Scalpers exist because there is a varying level of consumers' willingness to pay, however this does not translate into prices being set too low.

For example, let's say there are 150 people who want to see a show with a capacity of 100. The price per ticket is set @ $200.

Of the 150 people, here is how much each is willing to pay:

- 10 people: $150
- 80 people: $200
- 40 people: $225
- 20 people: $250

In the above example, the 10 people who are willing to pay $150 will be priced out of purchasing. The remaining 140 people will be first come, first served for the 100 tickets @ $200.

Now some of these 140 people may be scalpers. Understanding the market demand, some scalpers may be able to sell their $200 tickets for $225 or $250.

However, this does not mean the tickets were underpriced. In the above example, if the promoter (let's say, Planet Bluegrass), decided to price this event instead @ $225, only 60 people would be interested in buying, leaving 40 unsold tickets. By pricing the event @ $200 per ticket, the promoter maximizes revenue (100 tickets @ $200 per ticket = $20,000 vs. 60 tickets @ $225 = $13,500)

So, simple economics typically applies when supply=demand. This is when an economic equilibrium is achieved.

However, when supply is fixed, inefficiencies in the market result when the seller is unable to set pricing that captures all consumers' willingness to pay (and thereby creating a black market for scalpers).

[Bevin]

Nice econ lesson, Billy!

[ShatteredArm]

Do those who are willing to pay 200% of face value have less desire to attend the event?  This is just simple economics--any time scalpers are making money, the price of the event is too low. 

Face on Mars, well said.

I'm going to use those degrees I paid for and attempt to discuss the above comment. Scalpers exist because there is a varying level of consumers' willingness to pay, however this does not translate into prices being set too low.

For example, let's say there are 150 people who want to see a show with a capacity of 100. The price per ticket is set @ $200.

Of the 150 people, here is how much each is willing to pay:

- 10 people: $150
- 80 people: $200
- 40 people: $225
- 20 people: $250

In the above example, the 10 people who are willing to pay $150 will be priced out of purchasing. The remaining 140 people will be first come, first served for the 100 tickets @ $200.

Now some of these 140 people may be scalpers. Understanding the market demand, some scalpers may be able to sell their $200 tickets for $225 or $250.

However, this does not mean the tickets were underpriced. In the above example, if the promoter (let's say, Planet Bluegrass), decided to price this event instead @ $225, only 60 people would be interested in buying, leaving 40 unsold tickets. By pricing the event @ $200 per ticket, the promoter maximizes revenue (100 tickets @ $200 per ticket = $20,000 vs. 60 tickets @ $225 = $13,500)

So, simple economics typically applies when supply=demand. This is when an economic equilibrium is achieved.

However, when supply is fixed, inefficiencies in the market result when the seller is unable to set pricing that captures all consumers' willingness to pay (and thereby creating a black market for scalpers).

With all due respect, you're wrong.  Your numbers in your example are completely arbitrary.  It is a PROVEN ECONOMIC FACT that if demand exceeds supply, the price is too low.  Equilibrium is achieved when supply equals demand, but what causes that to occur is the economically optical price.

Essentially, there are three variables: supply, demand, and price.  If supply is fixed, there are not automatically inefficiencies in the market, as long as the other two variables are not fixed.  In that scenario, the following can occur: (a) the price is set too low, in which case, there is a shortage; (b) the prices is too high, in which case, the event is not filled to capacity; or (c) the price is optimal, in which case, the event is filled to capacity, and nobody who is willing to pay the price is shut out.

Clearly, we have a shortage here, which means the price is not optimal.  Scalpers are irrelevant to this equation; they are simply market makers, and do not affect demand or supply.