dwindling sitting space at festivals...

[t4]

just had a blast at folks yesterday. 
the last couple of years, at folks and at rockygrass, it seems to me that space is becoming more and more scarce.  granted, i did show up late yesterday (noonish), but i have been going for many years, and never had the experience i had yesterday - NO space to even put down a blanket.  NONE.  we literally stood there not knowing what to do.  every square inch covered by tarps.  (mostly uninhabited or large tarps with a total of two chairs on them).
this leads me to wonder, as i know it has not always been this way... is it time to have tarp-size restrictions or something else?  i mean, i know it was a sold-out show, but if sold out means that everyone has to show up by 10:00 a.m. just to have a place to sit ANYWHERE, how can that be remedied?  although we had a great day anyway, it did really put a damper on the fun having to try to try to squeeze into a little strip of dirt right along the edge of the walkway, while those around us were 2 people on a 5'x8' tarp.

thoughts?

[landshark]

just had a blast at folks yesterday. 
the last couple of years, at folks and at rockygrass, it seems to me that space is becoming more and more scarce.  granted, i did show up late yesterday (noonish), but i have been going for many years, and never had the experience i had yesterday - NO space to even put down a blanket.  NONE.  we literally stood there not knowing what to do.  every square inch covered by tarps.  (mostly uninhabited or large tarps with a total of two chairs on them).
this leads me to wonder, as i know it has not always been this way... is it time to have tarp-size restrictions or something else?  i mean, i know it was a sold-out show, but if sold out means that everyone has to show up by 10:00 a.m. just to have a place to sit ANYWHERE, how can that be remedied?  although we had a great day anyway, it did really put a damper on the fun having to try to try to squeeze into a little strip of dirt right along the edge of the walkway, while those around us were 2 people on a 5'x8' tarp.

thoughts?

Yes, Hi festi friend

While it is true that tarp space in front of the stage is taken up by noon on Sunday(of coarse it is, what are you thinkin) it has come to my attention that their are an abundace of tarp spaces along the river in the shade. Yes it is true you cannot see the stage, but you can hear just fine. So you can't be choosie over a tarp space if you don't claim your space early. Thats the way all fests are.

Now the empty tarp issue. It is the festivarian way to share. If you need a seat, sit down in an empty chair of your choice, and when the owners return, make a friend. Everyone is aware of this and it's OK.

Tarp size restrictions, are you kidding.... Lets say PBG says only 5X7 tarps, how many folks are gonna throw 1 tarp and connect it to two more tarps and the entire scene repeats otself.... people will always find a way to work around the rules. Tolerance is key at fest...

I arrived at 1:15 on Sunday found an beautiful tarp space by the river under shade trees

It sure was fun

[annpete]

Yes, it was my first time at Folks (came only on Sunday), and I was pleasantly surprised at how many people were out watching the early sets. I've camped onsite at RG at the Ranch since '94, and don't often see such great attendance at the 1st set on Sunday morning 

Having said that, my hubby and I sat for 5" on a big tarp under the trees (left of stage) that had been unoccupied for 45 minutes during the Bela/Abby set, and when the owner returned, he "harrumphed" about us being there. Then, when we picked up our chairs to move, we were lectured about "you know, people sit in line all night to get these spots". Of course, we left for more hospitable pastures....and he was the only un-festivarian person we encountered the rest of the fabulous day and night!

Loved the overall vibe and the artist lineup was AMAZING on Sunday. Yeesh....now it's gonna have to be a trifecta (TBF, RG, and now Folks) each year with PB offerings! 

 Listening to: Joe Craven - Foakee

[Pen]

Sorry to hear that T4.  I've had your exact experience and it is tough.  I certainly takes the fun out of attending the festival if you have no seats or reasonable home base.  But as Landy said - it's the nature of beast.  I don't think anything will (or can) be done.

IMO -Planet Bluegrass in Lyons is the premier festival location in the Denver area.  There are certainly others you can attend in CO that won't present the seating issues you encountered.  Frankly, with 2 really young kids, I'm not sure when I'll be back to Lyons for a festival - but I will be back!

I'm not sure who you come with - but if it's just you and a few other adults - I'd do exactly what annpete did (if you can't come early).  Expect to make new friends and utilize other ppl's tarps.  I've done that and it is a viable way to enjoy the festival. 

[t4]

thanks for thoughts, all.
i am indeed aware of the way festivals work, having been going there for 10 years.  and of course, i know that to a certain extent, hey, come or don't come and deal with it either way!  however, now with babies in tow, etc.  who won't last a 12-hour day out there, it just isn't feasible to be waiting at the gates when they open to be sure we have a place to sit.  i know plenty of people DO, and that's great, i guess it just seems like perhaps there could be a way to not alienate folks who can't/won't follow the classic "rules" of festival-going.  at many other shows/festivals, even when something sells out, there is still seating available.  and yes, we noticed later that there were shady spots with hammocks across the creek.  but i still say, if you're selling __ many tickets, think about whether you have seating space for __ many people. 
the tarp thing is definitely a tricky one - we also ran into more than one set of  huffy people who did not want us encroaching on the edge of their tarp space, and who also told us that "they got there early to get those seats", so as far as the festivarian lovefest, as with everything, it isn't always happening that way.  and the main issue i have with those folks, and the reason why i suggested a limited tarp size, is that many, many people were there with 2 chairs and 5'x8' tarps. 
so, what it comes down to is, is it really in tune with "festivarian" ideals to say "hey - either come early or don't get a seat!" especially when so many people have tarps spread around that are more room than they need?  if there could never ever be anything like a tarp limit, then perhaps PB could make announcements over the loudspeaker to educate/encourage people to just be courteous when it's a sold out show, and maybe shrink their footprint a little to make room for others? 
to me, this whole "well, it's a festival so what do you expect", and "get there early or else" thing just doesn't fly with the supposed festivarian approach.

[retsin2000]

Sorry you had a rough time guys.

I think there is generally a difference between sitting on an empty tarp while it isn't in use and setting up chairs for the day on someone's tarp that they went to a lot of trouble to put in a prime spot. I've gone up front on other people's tarps a lot and never had anyone say a negative word to me. I didn't try to set up for the day there though and never brought my own chair for their tarp. I just found an empty spot for awhile and then moved on.

I almost always wait in line for a number and generally get decent spots for my group. We are almost never all at the tarp at the same time so it may have looked like our tarp had 2 people on a 5x8 tarp at times but there were 6 of us. 2 of the 6 are kids so generally 1 adult was with the kids in the kid zone and there were 3 adults on the tarp. We had at least one "stranger" come sit on our tarp this FolksFest but I never had a really really good spot since we went for the trees on account of the little ones.

When I have had a prime spot I've had quite a few people hang out with me and I really have made new friends that way. I'd probably be huffy if someone tried to put their chairs on my tarp for the duration of the day though.

[retsin2000]

Oh and I do think that the original thought that there is less space recently is true. I'm pretty sure that PBG is selling more tickets in the last couple of years than they used to. I definitely think that there isn't room for any more increases.

One thing to keep in mind though is that if they had sold fewer tickets they probably wouldn't have been able to afford that completely insanely awesome lineup this year.

Side note: Landshark I was looking for you but never did see you yesterday. Glad you had fun, not that there was any doubt.

[t4]

insanely awesome lineup indeed! 

and regardless of varying opinions of tarp usage, it's good to know that someone else noticed increased numbers in the past couple of years.  perhaps nothing more than growing pains...?

[landshark]

Side note: Landshark I was looking for you but never did see you yesterday. Glad you had fun, not that there was any doubt.

  I was at the fence up front from 1:30 on. Sorry to have missed you.  Yeah, that was fun.

[landshark]

insanely awesome lineup indeed! 

and regardless of varying opinions of tarp usage, it's good to know that someone else noticed increased numbers in the past couple of years.  perhaps nothing more than growing pains...?

OK here is a thought. What if PBG lays a huge tarp for everyone, therefore your space, is your chair.

[t4]

ha!  funny.  maybe NO tarps - chair space is good?  perhaps that would allow for more people to sit more equally, if they are going to sell more tickets.

[ruffnrocky]

People do love their music in Colorado and it takes an real effort to get a spot up close. I think it makes for a better listening experience because the people that do make the effort are real music fans that aren't there for just the party. The lottery systems seems fair and I thank PB for the effort to print and pass out all the numbers. The only answer I know of if you have kids is when they're old enough, have them sit in line for the lottery numbers. I also don't want it to be like Merlefest when you pay extra for a VIP seat close to the stage.

 Listening to: Clem Snide "End Of Love"

[natiro]

This was our 13th year at the festival and it was noticably more difficult to get good tarp space and good camping space in spite of all the work that went into both.  In the years we've been there, we've seen the line grow from gathering at 6:30am, to gathering at 2:00am, to sleeping in line, to a lottery system with 250 numbers to this years lottery of approximately 700 numbers.  We've participated in every configuration.  Oh, those were the days! 

We are certainly willing to spend the time to wait in line for a lottery number but this year on Sunday, with a number in the 60s, we ended up way left of the stage at the closest tarp space available near center.  Later I found out that at least a couple of folks with low numbers threw down multiple tarps dead center in front of the sound board.  These are people we've become festival friends with over the years but still, I feel disappointed that they would do that.   Many people have been willing to put in the time to get a chance to have good seating, but when a chosen few feel entitled to fill up space with multiple tarps they take that opportunity away from others. 

[ruffnrocky]

Multiple tarp throw downs is definitely bad form but in the Folks and Rockygrass guidelines it's not mentioned like it is for Telluride. Telluride guidelines clearly state, one number, one person, one tarp. Hopefully someone from the planet is reading this and add it to the guidelines. Being me, I would have said something to the multi tarpers and come off looking like an old curmudgeon since it wasn't in print.

That being said, being a veteran of prolly 40 TBF and Rockgrass festivals and only maybe a 1/2 dozen Folks. I don't feel the festi love at Folks like I do at the bluegrass events. I think its cuz us bluegrassers have bonded together for so many years having 2 festivals to get to know each other over the years, that we understand sharing tarp space and being courteous and not doing multi tarpage. But it sure bets a Charlie Daniels crowd!

Multiple thanks to planetbluegrass for putting on the bestest music festivals in the land! 

 Listening to: Bon Iver - Skinny Love