My observations of the line procedure

[completejohn]

FaceOnMars -

Re: your responses to Craig's questions:  Great post. 

As one who has learned how to benefit from the current line procedures, I still would "vote against my own self interests*" and say they are not really fair.  Just cuz I know how work the system doesn't make it right.



*The state motto of Kansas

[landshark]

One thing I'll say about the dust is that, as a festival-goer with a 1.5 year old, the dust was a little disturbing at times and it was something I don't remember from festivals past -- this could be because I wasn't as aware/concerned about it in the past, mind you, but there was one day that I considered bringing my daughter over with me for the afternoon, but my mom wanted to hang out with her at our condo instead, and I was really glad it shook out the way it did because the dust had kicked up something nasty and would have been really unpleasant for my daughter. I know not every festivarian has a child, but as one of the many, I would have appreciated a bit more attention to dust control.

Everything else, I could give or take. We get in line around 7 a.m. every day and get about the same number every day and about the same spot every day -- would I rather be a little closer? Probably, and the politics probably rise as the line numbers get smaller, but I think we get a fair lot for the effort we put in.

That said, I did miss my number on the first day because I ran to get breakfast and the numbers came around when I was gone. We dealt with it, though it was annoying to not know when the numbers would come, but one guy was totally playing the line - he came to the guy next to us, said he got skipped and asked if he could pop in and grab a number by us, and then we found out that he turned around and sold that number (the number I should have gotten because I had been waiting for two hours, but missed because decided to responsibly nourish myself). Just an annoying shake of events more than anything, though.

The planet in general is hotter and dryer and dust storms are becoming more and more frequent not just at Fest. Pay attention people the planet is changing . Consider dust a part of your diet.

[coloradobgrass]

Add me to the list of the vocal minority that thinks the tarp line is rigged and needs to be changed.

[oddfired]

Some of the things that are top on the list in my head are:

1. Dust Control, we can and need to do better, however I worry that planning for this will assure rain.  Similarly, a canvas pathway would also help this but also provide clearer access through the crowd.

2.  Let's let the tarp discussion begin.  Purchase of reserved seating "squares" at sound booth radius? (wouldn't lots of people pay us for a decent but not from row seat?  I realize many local teenagers would be out of work)  Random line number giveaway.  Tarp size enforcement or abandon "rule". Rented Chairs at first 100 seats in line, no storing seats, seat picked up at noon daily and replaced after the show the night before, their last task of the day).  A different strategy every day just to experiment? Using wristands for number, alternating daily.  Reserved sunshade spot?  Sunshade rule of size and height?   Give any money collected to the Early Stone Ferguson retirement account or to the winner of a festivarian vote of national/local charities selected by Planet Bluegrass?

3. Do we actually "preference" long time attendees? How?  Email contact with those with tickets this year? Or those that attended all four days?

4.  Do we increase the price of tickets to slow down demand or live with the CRUSH.  Do we do away with "holiday pricing", cuz it's no holiday when we head to Christmas starting the "sorry, no" rap.

5.  Crowd size was actually about 500 per day higher.  Too crowded? Do we accept some crowding for keeping tickets low and being able to so strongly support so many local charities?

6.  Do we sell the limited single days before artist announcement to support those that can only come for a day, but are festival focused more than headliner focus?

7.  Do I tell you guys one of the cool old/new reunion type bands that are likely coming next year?


Ha!  Let the games begin....

I wasn't going to respond, but I decided that my voice needs to be heard. I believe that the majority of festival goers I know are okay with the current system, but the minority who aren't are clearly louder. And I know how powerful the loud minority can be thanks to Fox News.

Dust Control would be appreciated by many, if not most, of us. Several from our camp lose our voices every year, including myself. Most of that is our own fault, but the dust definitely contributes.

I don't personally have any issues with the tarp line. I think the encouragement of tarp hopping solves most of the problems. I know a lot of people feel uncomfortable tarp hopping, but I think that's just silly. My crew always has two tarps right around the sound board and we always welcome the tarpless.

I don't think giving the vets special treatment is fair in any way. I've been coming for 6 years and I still remember being a festi-virgin. I hear people talking about how we need to keep the secret to ourselves, but we all found out about it from someone. Without word of mouth, who among us would be at the festival every year?

Don't increase the price until you need to. As Jeff put it, as long as you're making a nice profit and can still support the community and put on the best party all year, the prices don't need to be raised.

I can't speak to the crowd size as I was rarely in the festival field this year due to an injury sustained several weeks prior to festival.

I think selling tickets prior to the single day announcement is wonderful. I come every year for the festival. the music is great, but I put my trust in the planet to provide the best lineup possible and I'm rarely disappointed by the artists. And when I am disappointed by a particular set, someone else in attendance considers it their favorite of the fest.

Tell us or don't tell us. I'll be there running a muck next year either way.

With all due respect, you are part of the biggest camp and didn't really go into the fest and you don't  see a problem?  Well, duh.  Now imagine, cane in hand, you are there with just your s/o and your tarp location is entirely up to you, and you're camping in Illium.  Different story, right?

If the planet isn't interested in changing the rules, AT LEAST abide by the ones you already have!  The line would actually work a LOT better if you enforced the current rules. 

Another idea: leave everything exactly the same but announce the location to begin lining up for the following day at the END of the day's music.  Then there won't be anybody leaving chairs out for the following day every morning.  What's the point to having the rule that it starts at the BEGINNING of the last set?  Just to make me miss the headliner???  It just seems like some of these rules we thought up by a bunch of people sitting around smoking some.....oh wait.....crap.

[oddfired]

I just realized that if the rules are not enforced again next year, I can get a 4 day pass and just sleep in the town line!  No camping needed, and it's the only way to get a good number anyway!  Win win!!

[Dev11]

I just realized that if the rules are not enforced again next year, I can get a 4 day pass and just sleep in the town line!  No camping needed, and it's the only way to get a good number anyway!  Win win!!

I thought about that some nights as I was walking from town back to Town Park, that some people out there appeared to be quite cozy with a chair and sleeping bag and cooler.

As a first-timer, I didn't necessarily think the line system was fair, but I also didn't feel like I had to be right up in the front.  I got in line each morning and found adequate space, but the system is definitely not fair as currently implemented.

Regarding single day tickets, I think they should go on sale after lineup announcements, but since I've now been, I don't care what the policy is because I'm buying a four-day pass as long as I can!

[Hot Sugar]

I spent my first two years camping at Illium. My party of three always found space on empty tarps or on partially occupied tarps. In fact, I always had a good spot for every set I wanted to see. I never bothered to run a tarp until I joined a larger camp, and there were people on our tarp for every set. Some were members of our camp and some weren't.

[FaceOnMars]

FaceOnMars -

Re: your responses to Craig's questions:  Great post. 

As one who has learned how to benefit from the current line procedures, I still would "vote against my own self interests*" and say they are not really fair.  Just cuz I know how work the system doesn't make it right.



*The state motto of Kansas

CJ:  I believe that you would "vote against your own self interests" based upon your general take on things, which is illustrated by an earlier post you had made:

"Seems to me that EVERYONE who shows up ready to occupy a chair at the end of the second-to-last set should have an equal opportunity to be #1, not just the people who set up a chair there days before.  Just because I was #41 on Thursday does NOT give me the absolute right to be #41 on Friday"

I think your prior point (quoted above) gets at part of the issue really well, in so far as the opportunistic nature of how the system has "evolved".   In other words, there's already a sufficiently large number of folks who are all simultaneously vying for the same position at the outset.  It's kind of like a race with 200 participants who don't know where they should officially be at the start of the race.  Instead of randomly hovering around until the official time to all make a mad dash to line up in an equitable order (which is a nebulous proposition to beging with), they've adopted a quasi official rule of first come first served beyond the currently set limits ... which is apparently being abused.   It is important to note that many of these people represent a much larger contingent (aka "camps" or "crews").

Seems the only fair way to allow those to comply with and compete to be #1 the prior night (according to the current rules) would be to setup a lottery the night prior.

But this really begs the question which many have already raised:  if there's going to be a lottery for those who have the resources (via association of larger groups) to sleepovernight and retain their position, then why not open the process up to a wider spectrum of festivarians who aren't as "connected" with camps/crews and still get some sleep while making a true effort?  IOW, a lottery at 6am or 8am (instead of one at 10pm the night prior) would be much more inclusive to the average festivarian who's willing to make a decent effort.

[headlight]

I just realized that if the rules are not enforced again next year, I can get a 4 day pass and just sleep in the town line!  No camping needed, and it's the only way to get a good number anyway!  Win win!!

Let me know how that works out for you; certainly would be cheaper than a condo in town or (shudder) up in the village, not that we're likely to do that again.

Something personal to pass along to you as well, before my comments on this thread.

I went looking for you and your NM flag, and started with the group next to us, since believe it or not, they were flying a fish and NM flag. The personal note was that a woman named Becca? asked me to tell you that she had been trying to get ahold of you and believe you may actually be from the saem town, so beware! 

My $.02 on this thread...

I don't think a one size fits all policy for tarp size is the answer; it may be and in fact is quite sufficient for the tow of us and we rarely use it all, just our 2 chairs and a blanket to dance on. Might work for 4 if they are close! ;-)

I think the large tarps probably work out to about the same square footage per Festivarian, but YMMV. By Your I mean all of us, not just you OddF.

So after Firstgrass, unfortunately missed it completely, we went to YMSB at the CC. Woke up a little after 6:30 Thursday and although, probably didn't catch the Ganjala until a little after 7 was certainly in tarp line by 7:30. Not expecting much but did want to see if I could make the run from the village via the G and still get under 4-500. I actually ended up wtih 397, standing in front of the old Jil, which I didn't think was all that shabby and also did not plan on using it. While waiting for numbers, I did the line mingle to see who I might recognize and do some general recon after bringing the Planet back to a buch of folks.

Ran into some locals, who we have come to know over the years and since they are part of that whole tarp conspiracy, when they invited us to share, we did! ;-)

After I got me number, went back up to the Village and rousted the wife and got ready for some fest fun!

Needless to say, I did not catch the early G the remainder of the and did enjoy and I believe fairly reciprocated the Kindness of our friends and even managed to make several new ones over the course or the run.

Not too surprising saw many of the same folks in approximately the same location over the 4 days. Of course we all moved a little further back and left or right as demand for prime real estate drove some folks to be in line ever earlier.

Didn't see any line number scalpers, but since that would have taken place post my departure to go back up, can't speak to that, but sounds like it has gotten more organized, which is probably both expected and unfortunate. But as Ferg says, why put the local kids out of work?

Dust was bad no doubt and probably varied as to how bad depending on location and activity level. By Sunday night, I could barely breathe through my nose.

So I guess randomize the line numbers based on wristband #'s is still my suggestion, from the for what it is worth department, but leave the Tarps alone, at least until some serious research is performed. In my mind larger groups w/ large tarps are equivalent to small groups with smaller tarps.

Perhaps in the PB camp, they might, repeat might consdier have a section up front that was exclusive to 5X7 and then on each side permit the larger tarps. Might be worth experimenting.

No comment on the family camp, but that in my mind was the big space eater and likely to be a valid explanation for how crowded it seemed to some. No suggestion for that, other than perhaps several large communcal tents, which might improve morale, visibility and other intangible side benefits.

Had a great time, even though the G made Nightgrass less than I had hoped, it was still an awesome experience. So glad we made it!

 Listening to: My laptop starting to shut down

[beanald]

Maybe someone should start a no-tarp movement.  Just bring your chair and have a seat.

 Listening to: And watching the Woodstock documentary. Not many tarps. Just a lot of mud.

[Hot Sugar]

Maybe someone should start a no-tarp movement.  Just bring your chair and have a seat.

That's called tarp hopping and is highly encouraged.

[Lisa Delia]

My main objection is the "across the street" setup the day before.  Whoever gets in this line has that number all 4 days.  So next year, do we set up a chair on Tuesday?  Methinks that's what this will evolve to.  I don't have a solution, other than lottery (which is a pain on PB's part), as there will always be a way to buck the system.

Love this fest and thank you Planet Bluegrass!  Happy 4th!

 Listening to: far-off harleys taking advantage of the beautiful holiday weather!

[Cindy Lou]

The tarp line/number system is rigged and feels like it's run by a small mafia. I saw several transactions of money for numbers. One guy had 5 numbers and sold the higher numbers for more money. Number 91 went for $60. Why do I have to get in line very early in the morning just to secure a spot??? Please change this PB!

Now THAT is just wrong. This was my 37th TBF and if I had witnessed that I'm not sure I could have kept quiet about it. We (Runamuck) encourage our virgins to volunteer for tarp line/run duty, and they always step up. I stay up very late most nights, so I often check on our tarp line sitters to give them a break while I stay in the line. I was there 2 of the 4 mornings when the tickets were handed out, and it seemed to be later and later each day. If TBF would give the #s out much earlier, but late enough for the nightgrass attendees to get in line, then there wouldn't even be a line after about 3 a.m. But selling/buying numbers?  That is a bunch of crap.

[Cindy Lou]

We are reluctant to change "traditions", and have had pretty good luck letting festivarians police themselves.

It is true we haven't been very actively enforcing a tarp size rule.

We'll be back after we rinse the dust off (another very significant issue we need to address)....

Craig, it was VERY dusty this year, and even though I didn't ask why the water trucks weren't around as much, it was my guess that because we are on water restrictions (still) that it was more important to conserve the water in case we need it to put out fires.
So now you know why I was waving at you to SLOW DOWN when you came barreling through the park! 
Another great year all around. And, I still have my 5x7 tarps that I bought when they first put that limit on them, so they must be about 20 years old by now and haven't ended up in any dumpsters yet!
(p.s. don't answer that phone in the trunk).

[Cindy Lou]

So how about TBF give out RANDOMLY NUMBERED AND DATED WRISTBANDS, FOR THAT DAY'S RUN ONLY, and actually place it on the wrist of the person in line. That way they could NOT be sold or traded etc.  If the wristband wearer is not the person who will actually run the tarp, they would need to be in line with the assigned runner, and the gatekeeper would be the one to cut the wristband off and give the okay to the pinch runner. Any altered or cut wristbands would be denied by the gatekeeper and the offender would be sent to the back of the line and made to wait for 30 minutes before they could go in. Any person receiving the tarp line wristband would also be required to have the appropriate festival wristband if they are on the TP/WF side, both of which require a 4-day pass. This would eliminate paying kids w/o the proper tickets to stay in line who then leave once numbers are handed out.  I did notice that when I received my camp's number that no one checked to see if I or anyone in line had the proper wristband for the location from which I came.  I could have just been a random paid person in line who then passes along the number to my "benefactor."

Or PB could really mess with the "certain early birds" in line by giving the numbers to the back of the line and work forward. That would get the old goat, hmm?

Or they could have a fishbowl with numbers in it and you draw out a number and take what you get, stamp the number on your forehead so you can't sell or trade it.


Or just leave it the way it is and enjoy this silly discussion every year. Any person who goes will either not care about this and return, or they will get so pissed off they won't come back and that's just fine by me.