My observations of the line procedure

[Debbiefromtucson]

So GonePickin- you seem to be suggesting  that PB should sell to all the scalpers first who can afford 1,000 a ticket ( who will then try and sell at 5000 a fix)and then if anything left over- sell to the rest of us??? I'm sorry but your approach just seems BAD.   

[cmactak]

Speaking of ticket prices: what is PB thinking or doing about Stub Hub selling tickets that were duplicates? I know it doesn't pay to "pay a scalper" but the electronic ticket issue is real and I heard about more than 1 problem with "stub hub" and duplicates.  Just a thought.
BTW the barcode changes done by PB over the phone, I thought that was a FABULOUS service and a great way to ensure safe ticket transfer via the ticket forum.

already filled out survey.  thanks PB

[GonePickin]

So GonePickin- you seem to be suggesting  that PB should sell to all the scalpers first who can afford 1,000 a ticket ( who will then try and sell at 5000 a fix)and then if anything left over- sell to the rest of us??? I'm sorry but your approach just seems BAD.   

I think raising prices would reduce scalping actually. There are other factors, but for the most part, scalping exists to the degree that demand exceeds supply. If the average ticket price from PB is raised to, say, $450, demand at that price would absolutely drop, reducing one's opportunity to scalp tickets. Average profit per sale would drop for scalpers as well, making scalping much less attractive.

Now there are other issues associated with a tiered price increase like this that may make this a suboptimal solution - I don't know if this is what I'd prefer PB do in reality. Just speaking from a personal stand point, I'd be willing to essentially tell PB, "I'll pay you more than Joe Schmoe - sell *ME* those TP tickets!"

[sarajomo]

Raising prices really isn't the answer.  If you wanted to give priority to seasoned vets look at the way Jamcruise, Burning Man, or any of the Playa fests do it.  You earn tokens by the number of years you go and you get first dibs based off that.  You get a limit of tickets (usually 2-4) that you can buy.  And if you miss the token round then you are in with the rest of the public. 

This trip is already a small fortune for a lot of people to attend by the time you travel and pay for lodging/ necessities for the week if you are camping.  We had a lot of people who didn't have tickets at first but they showed up just like they always do.  I had a friend that made the trip, didn't have a ticket, and ended up with 2 TP's just by asking around.  She was able to help another festivarian that was looking as well. 

The thing I have always loved about this festival is the freedom and how nice people are.  The more rules you enforce, the less people will feel like it is a good time and like they are being policed.

[HuckinFappy]

The more rules you enforce, the less people will feel like it is a good time and like they are being policed.

Some of my best friends will no longer come because of this.

[AnythingAtAll]

Lines and Tarps:

Personally, I have written off the front of the line forever and have come to find reasonable work-arounds. Time is far too valuable in Telluride to spend jockeying for line supremacy. Sleep (as Oddfired points out) is valuable also.

Right now, the front of the line is based solely on desire and it seems to be getting progressively out of hand (just my perception.)  If festivarians don't resolve this, change will come, sooner or later.  John has a valid point regarding the front of the line.  I'd love to be able to think of an innovative, fun way to resolve this, but I'm not that good.

Here's my best shot at a logistically workable solution:

ONE random number handout per line in the early am hours (with morning light) at a fixed, known time to wristband wearing people (6 am, 630 or 7 am for instance- pick one and make it known.)

This combines some level of desire (getting there), doesn't intrude too much on sleep and doesn't preclude forming a line and spending the night in line (tradition) to assure one's presence in the early am (just like now.)  It would actually free up time to enjoy the precious hours of the festival.  Large camps and large groups retain a statistical advantage.

Downsides: Change to tradition.  Still encourage hiring of line sitters.  People would try for multiple numbers (this could be countered with hand mark or stamp.) More people would likely show up (is this a downside?)


Tarps:

IF the Planet goes the way of tarp enforcement, carefully consider what the MAXIMUM size should be.  IMO, it's bigger than 5X7.  Every time I set out a low-back chair and me and some stuff, I take up approximately 12 sq. ft.  5'X7' is great for two or three if you're sitting, but that's all folks!  I can't realistically envision tarphopping surviving if the max size were 5 X 7.

If it were me calling the shot (and I really don't think I'd do the enforcement thing at all,) the smallest MAXIMUM I would consider would be 72 sq. ft.  So please think this one through.

Thanks for reading... 

[completejohn]

Lines and Tarps:

Personally, I have written off the front of the line forever and have come to find reasonable work-arounds. Time is far too valuable in Telluride to spend jockeying for line supremacy. Sleep (as Oddfired points out) is valuable also.

Right now, the front of the line is based solely on desire and it seems to be getting progressively out of hand (just my perception.)  If festivarians don't resolve this, change will come, sooner or later.  John has a valid point regarding the front of the line.  I'd love to be able to think of an innovative, fun way to resolve this, but I'm not that good.

Here's my best shot at a logistically workable solution:

ONE random number handout per line in the early am hours (with morning light) at a fixed, known time to wristband wearing people (6 am, 630 or 7 am for instance- pick one and make it known.)

This combines some level of desire (getting there), doesn't intrude too much on sleep and doesn't preclude forming a line and spending the night in line (tradition) to assure one's presence in the early am (just like now.)  It would actually free up time to enjoy the precious hours of the festival.  Large camps and large groups retain a statistical advantage.

Downsides: Change to tradition.  Still encourage hiring of line sitters.  People would try for multiple numbers (this could be countered with hand mark or stamp.) More people would likely show up (is this a downside?)


Tarps:

IF the Planet goes the way of tarp enforcement, carefully consider what the MAXIMUM size should be.  IMO, it's bigger than 5X7.  Every time I set out a low-back chair and me and some stuff, I take up approximately 12 sq. ft.  5'X7' is great for two or three if you're sitting, but that's all folks!  I can't realistically envision tarphopping surviving if the max size were 5 X 7.

If it were me calling the shot (and I really don't think I'd do the enforcement thing at all,) the smallest MAXIMUM I would consider would be 72 sq. ft.  So please think this one through.

Thanks for reading... 

Yes 5 x 7 is too small.  9 x 12?

If numbers were handed out at 7 am my entire camp (and every other one, too) would be there to participate, negating sleep for ALL.  But it's still better than no change. 

[Glowworm Bill]

The tarp system works great for sociopaths and capitalists!  Before TBF, I had never been to a festival or concert where 20-30% of the venue space was reserved for underpopulated tarps.  The idea that large camps deserve to eat up the front of the venue with unused space just because they have more resources is disrespectful to most of us Festivarians. 

Enforce the 5X7 tarp size!!!! I had a family of four utilizing a 5X7 tarp the entire festival and it was plenty of space.

If large camps prioritize socializing over closer access to the stage, then accommodate them with a large tarp area that is one side of the high back chairs area!

This way you can keep the rest of the tarp tradition in place for those who want to stay up all night!

PB, outside of a few other minor infrastructure complaints (e.g. adding a jumbo-tron screen and handwashing stations), the festival is an amazing experience.  The lineup was fantastic!

[completejohn]

Glow - it's been years since I've done T-ride with just 3 other people, so I'll take your observation that '5x7 is enough' to heart.  Thanks for your input, cuz four people per up-front tarp seems fair.

[Pirate Looks at --]

This is still the best festival there is and I wouldn't change a thing!

 Listening to: Jerry Garcia

[KaraJean]

This is still the best festival there is and I wouldn't change a thing! 

[FaceOnMars]

1.  Maybe you could convert the portable beer vending cart to spray down water in the suspect areas regularly.

2.  I find it to be an extremely interesting study re: the human psyche with respect to varying perspectives on tarps.  My suspicion is those who generally say "it works great, leave it alone" have benefited by the status quo and seek to preserve the system which has provided them with the outcome they've come to enjoy over the years.  This is not to say they're overtly/knowingly seeking to preserve an imbalance, but perhaps they've skewed the situation in their minds as being fair in the first place by overemphasizing certain metrics ... while also citing other "intangible benefits" (i.e. tradition, commendatory, etc.) to build their case.

Nonetheless, I "get it" as to why.  For example, if someone were to develop a website called powderstash.com which was hell bent on revealing all of the secret nooks and crannies which mostly only locals knew about & GPS'ing them all to the rest of the world, I wouldn't be happy in the least bit & would try to oppose such an effort!  While not a perfect analogy, I do see why some would feel as they do about "opening up the floodgates" of primo real estate in TP to the masses.

As some (pro-tarpers) have mentioned in the past, "you're still going to enjoy yourself no matter where you're at" (to those who are seeking tarp reform), the same can be said to those who would like to keep the status quo.   As some have mentioned, randomization of numbers at some point early in the morning might be the best fix in conjunction with enforcement of tarp size to help alleviate a lot of the related space issues.

I also echo the sentiment of keeping the festival grounds GA without VIP ... it is not a good vibe IMO.  I get a lot of mileage out of leaning over the fence at Telluride B&B and asking "pardon me, do you have any gray poupon?".  On the other side of the coin, maybe a few tents setup in the back for people to stand congregate, eat (picnic benches), but no tarps! ... which would eliminate the need for at least half of the "private" kelty's

3.  I don't believe those who have attended in the past should be given a leg up to those who haven't.  Ultimately, Town Park is a public municipal facility which is being leased by a private for-profit entity to provide a public benefit of the highest and best use.  Creating a "class system" runs counter to fair and unencumbered access to the event/public facility and may also have the unintended consequence of making things much more difficult for general population who are "non-regulars".  Look at it this way:  for all practical purposes, Telluride should've been a National Park, but the miners got here first.  Would it be fair for National Parks (Yosemite, Yellowstone, etc.) to play favorites to regulars and let the rest of the masses fight it out over the remaining availability?!?

4.  Pricing seems to be relatively fair to begin with & as many have mentioned, there are plenty of old timers who might get shut out if prices rise significantly.  An increase may change the entire dynamic of the festival in terms of the demographic profile and as a result the positive vibe which has garnered such goodwill over the years.  Visit during Telluride Blues & Brews & you'll notice the difference in vibe immediately (not for the better).  If anything, I'd say reduce the max 4-day allowance from 4 tickets to 2 tickets per person ... which will place reality & demand in more of an homogenous synch.

5.  Had some friends who have not been since 2009 and they did comment on how it seemed more crowded ... especially toward the back (butting into the food lines) and off to the sides up front.  It wasn't that long ago there used to be aisles on either side of the SBD.  I believe the venue can handle the higher capacity, but only with an adjustment of tarp size / policies.  Some have stated how they have tarps to dance on and tarps to relax on, tarps for shade, etc. ... Again, while I'm sure many will rationalize how "it all works out" and is OK, it's not exactly the best trajectory to mitigate overall personal space issues @ a venue which is pretty much maxed out.

6.  As a promoter, I'm sure it's awful nice to have $$$ in your pockets sooner than later, but selling single day tickets prior to the schedule release subverts the interests of those who are limited to seeing only a single day or two.  Ultimately, this might subvert the broadness of your market, especially at the local/regional level.

7. Sure

[Hot Sugar]

Some of the things that are top on the list in my head are:

1. Dust Control, we can and need to do better, however I worry that planning for this will assure rain.  Similarly, a canvas pathway would also help this but also provide clearer access through the crowd.

2.  Let's let the tarp discussion begin.  Purchase of reserved seating "squares" at sound booth radius? (wouldn't lots of people pay us for a decent but not from row seat?  I realize many local teenagers would be out of work)  Random line number giveaway.  Tarp size enforcement or abandon "rule". Rented Chairs at first 100 seats in line, no storing seats, seat picked up at noon daily and replaced after the show the night before, their last task of the day).  A different strategy every day just to experiment? Using wristands for number, alternating daily.  Reserved sunshade spot?  Sunshade rule of size and height?   Give any money collected to the Early Stone Ferguson retirement account or to the winner of a festivarian vote of national/local charities selected by Planet Bluegrass?

3. Do we actually "preference" long time attendees? How?  Email contact with those with tickets this year? Or those that attended all four days?

4.  Do we increase the price of tickets to slow down demand or live with the CRUSH.  Do we do away with "holiday pricing", cuz it's no holiday when we head to Christmas starting the "sorry, no" rap.

5.  Crowd size was actually about 500 per day higher.  Too crowded? Do we accept some crowding for keeping tickets low and being able to so strongly support so many local charities?

6.  Do we sell the limited single days before artist announcement to support those that can only come for a day, but are festival focused more than headliner focus?

7.  Do I tell you guys one of the cool old/new reunion type bands that are likely coming next year?


Ha!  Let the games begin....

I wasn't going to respond, but I decided that my voice needs to be heard. I believe that the majority of festival goers I know are okay with the current system, but the minority who aren't are clearly louder. And I know how powerful the loud minority can be thanks to Fox News.

Dust Control would be appreciated by many, if not most, of us. Several from our camp lose our voices every year, including myself. Most of that is our own fault, but the dust definitely contributes.

I don't personally have any issues with the tarp line. I think the encouragement of tarp hopping solves most of the problems. I know a lot of people feel uncomfortable tarp hopping, but I think that's just silly. My crew always has two tarps right around the sound board and we always welcome the tarpless.

I don't think giving the vets special treatment is fair in any way. I've been coming for 6 years and I still remember being a festi-virgin. I hear people talking about how we need to keep the secret to ourselves, but we all found out about it from someone. Without word of mouth, who among us would be at the festival every year?

Don't increase the price until you need to. As Jeff put it, as long as you're making a nice profit and can still support the community and put on the best party all year, the prices don't need to be raised.

I can't speak to the crowd size as I was rarely in the festival field this year due to an injury sustained several weeks prior to festival.

I think selling tickets prior to the single day announcement is wonderful. I come every year for the festival. the music is great, but I put my trust in the planet to provide the best lineup possible and I'm rarely disappointed by the artists. And when I am disappointed by a particular set, someone else in attendance considers it their favorite of the fest.

Tell us or don't tell us. I'll be there running a muck next year either way.

[zack_adcock]

One thing I'll say about the dust is that, as a festival-goer with a 1.5 year old, the dust was a little disturbing at times and it was something I don't remember from festivals past -- this could be because I wasn't as aware/concerned about it in the past, mind you, but there was one day that I considered bringing my daughter over with me for the afternoon, but my mom wanted to hang out with her at our condo instead, and I was really glad it shook out the way it did because the dust had kicked up something nasty and would have been really unpleasant for my daughter. I know not every festivarian has a child, but as one of the many, I would have appreciated a bit more attention to dust control.

Everything else, I could give or take. We get in line around 7 a.m. every day and get about the same number every day and about the same spot every day -- would I rather be a little closer? Probably, and the politics probably rise as the line numbers get smaller, but I think we get a fair lot for the effort we put in.

That said, I did miss my number on the first day because I ran to get breakfast and the numbers came around when I was gone. We dealt with it, though it was annoying to not know when the numbers would come, but one guy was totally playing the line - he came to the guy next to us, said he got skipped and asked if he could pop in and grab a number by us, and then we found out that he turned around and sold that number (the number I should have gotten because I had been waiting for two hours, but missed because decided to responsibly nourish myself). Just an annoying shake of events more than anything, though.

[FaceOnMars]

LOL @ statistician's claims re: so-called "vocal minority" & Fox "News"! 

Again, I find this all to be an interesting psychological study of human nature.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/allsongs/2013/06/27/196261513/the-good-listener-when-is-it-ok-to-hold-seats-at-a-festival