My observations of the line procedure

[cmactak]

I'm not sure the system makes that much sense, but i was happy to take my turn breaking 2 rules: sleeping in line and lying down, and then running in a tarp.
I like the Lyons process better with random numbers and then you can go back and hang with your friends or get a real night's sleep.
You can still maintain the tarp running tradition (I thought it was fun since I didn't want the front row). But, you have more rested Festivators and less competition in line/entitlement etc. I think 5x7 or 8x10 is a big enough tarp.  20x30 tarps filled with people become their own pushy pile of energy.

Thank you for a great festival, it was fabulous.
Yes, I already filled out the survey.

[completejohn]

The first chair for Thursday's tarp run was set up at 7:30 am on Wednesday.  That pretty much guaranteed that those people (as long as they occupied a seat from about 10pm on) were going to be #1 for the entire weekend.  How fair is that?  Not at all. 

So now are we to start placing chairs on Tuesday night?  Monday at noon?  Doesn't matter to me - I'll go put a chair down there right now for next year!

Seems to me that EVERYONE who shows up ready to occupy a chair at the end of the second-to-last set should have an equal opportunity to be #1, not just the people who set up a chair there days before.  Just because I was #41 on Thursday does NOT give me the absolute right to be #41 on Friday!

Yes, the tarp line is a tradition, and it's funny.  But it is not really all that FUN, and certainly not fair.  Let's fix this, please.

(((Thanks, craig and everyone at PB, for being an active part of the forum.  Whether or not you take our suggestions, your participation in our discussions makes us feel important.  However you ARE exempt from participating in discussions regarding bacon.)))

[sean1256]

Our one suggestion would be to hand out numbers more frequently later in the morning. We stood in line sometimes for one and a half to two hours before anyone came around with numbers. The problem here is that this allowed dozens of friends to thicken the line as friends woke up and squeezed in. If the numbers came more frequently late additions would have to join the back of the line.

[ferg]

Complete John - we have not now, nor have ever been, aware of discussions about bacon.

Some of the things that are top on the list in my head are:

1. Dust Control, we can and need to do better, however I worry that planning for this will assure rain.  Similarly, a canvas pathway would also help this but also provide clearer access through the crowd.

2.  Let's let the tarp discussion begin.  Purchase of reserved seating "squares" at sound booth radius? (wouldn't lots of people pay us for a decent but not from row seat?  I realize many local teenagers would be out of work)  Random line number giveaway.  Tarp size enforcement or abandon "rule". Rented Chairs at first 100 seats in line, no storing seats, seat picked up at noon daily and replaced after the show the night before, their last task of the day).  A different strategy every day just to experiment? Using wristands for number, alternating daily.  Reserved sunshade spot?  Sunshade rule of size and height?   Give any money collected to the Early Stone Ferguson retirement account or to the winner of a festivarian vote of national/local charities selected by Planet Bluegrass?

3. Do we actually "preference" long time attendees? How?  Email contact with those with tickets this year? Or those that attended all four days?

4.  Do we increase the price of tickets to slow down demand or live with the CRUSH.  Do we do away with "holiday pricing", cuz it's no holiday when we head to Christmas starting the "sorry, no" rap.

5.  Crowd size was actually about 500 per day higher.  Too crowded? Do we accept some crowding for keeping tickets low and being able to so strongly support so many local charities?

6.  Do we sell the limited single days before artist announcement to support those that can only come for a day, but are festival focused more than headliner focus?

7.  Do I tell you guys one of the cool old/new reunion type bands that are likely coming next year?


Ha!  Let the games begin....

 Listening to: owls, actually.

[HuckinFappy]

1. Dust Control, we can and need to do better, however I worry that planning for this will assure rain.  Similarly, a canvas pathway would also help this but also provide clearer access through the crowd.

You're right...but go ahead and assure the rains....all of Colorado will thank you

2.  Let's let the tarp discussion begin.  Purchase of reserved seating "squares" at sound booth radius? (wouldn't lots of people pay us for a decent but not from row seat?  I realize many local teenagers would be out of work)  Random line number giveaway.  Tarp size enforcement or abandon "rule". Rented Chairs at first 100 seats in line, no storing seats, seat picked up at noon daily and replaced after the show the night before, their last task of the day).  A different strategy every day just to experiment? Using wristands for number, alternating daily.  Reserved sunshade spot?  Sunshade rule of size and height?   Give any money collected to the Early Stone Ferguson retirement account or to the winner of a festivarian vote of national/local charities selected by Planet Bluegrass?

Meh.  Leave it alone.  unless your survery says I'm in the vast minority.  Town Park needs some more guidance on how to manage the stupid start of the line, but the rest of it works, more or less.   The unhappy people are letting you hear it, but is the silent majority okay with it?

3. Do we actually "preference" long time attendees? How?  Email contact with those with tickets this year? Or those that attended all four days?

You have no idea though.  Out of the 50 people I camp with every year, only 4 got tickets in the lottery.   The rest were all bought and traded in the "aftermarket".   My family hasn't gotten tickets from you since you started the lottery, but I've been there 24 years.  I want preference, sure!   But really, how does it work?

4.  Do we increase the price of tickets to slow down demand or live with the CRUSH.  Do we do away with "holiday pricing", cuz it's no holiday when we head to Christmas starting the "sorry, no" rap.

Don't dink with prices to control demand.  Your price should be a business formula, and is the one certain income.  If you're paying bills, making a fair profit, and can afford to make improvements, the price doesn't need to go up.  Lots of your old-timers are on fixed incomes now, and might get shut out by increases

5.  Crowd size was actually about 500 per day higher.  Too crowded? Do we accept some crowding for keeping tickets low and being able to so strongly support so many local charities?

It felt more crowded, to the point of annoyance at times.  Tough call...love helping the locals, want all the old-timers to be able to afford it, but would have liked a few less people.

6.  Do we sell the limited single days before artist announcement to support those that can only come for a day, but are festival focused more than headliner focus?

Yes.

7.  Do I tell you guys one of the cool old/new reunion type bands that are likely coming next year?

Of course!

Ha!  Let the games begin....

[kylers234]

My 2 sense.....

1. Dust control - only if it affects the artist's ability to sing.  It's Telluride, not Aspen.

2. I think the tarp line was OK, but we got in line around 7:00 and were around 500.  We like to sit about 20 feet behind the small speakers on stage left. The only problem I saw was that when we got there we could only find spots in the way back on the 'diaper' side (stage left) because of the gargantuan tarps (most of which were unoccupied a majority of the day) between us and the walkway.   The real issue is the unenforced tarp size rule.  We had a 5x7 on Sunday for the 3 of us and it puts you a little close to the people in front of you and no place for gear.

  Don't know about randomizing the numbers, but at least providing some place for small families to sit that can't take turns waiting in line like the big festivarian families. It was so crowded in the back because all the latecomers (after 7 am) we're forced to cram into the few remaining spots.  Provide shade tents in the back that all people can access occasionally, instead of wasting the space with those little inefficient lean tos.  Town park line gets preference, but that's OK, since I don't camp and wouldn't want to.

3., 4.  there's no way to cutoff 'Long-time.' I started coming in 1977, but took a long break. Everyone wants to 'pull up the ladder' and limit it to themselves so their experience never changes. 
It was fun to see more variety of people this year.  We had a family of 4 generations in front of us for 2 sets on Sunday, it was as much fun to watch them as anything else I saw all weekend.  Now that you are selling out so quickly, go ahead raise the price.  It's nice to see the people every year that just come for one day to see Peter Rowan or THB, for instance.

5. It did feel very crowded, but only because of all the empty HUGE tarps taking up so much real estate between the walkway and 20 feet past the speakers on the stage left side. 

6. Yes

7. Sure

Games.... You betcha.  We had a great time and everyone around me seemed to be as well.  Thanks for the opportunity.

 Listening to: Humming all the fabulous songs I heard last week!!!

[oddfired]

Ok I'll play!  I already filled out the survey.

1. Hard to control mother nature.  Water works, but that sure is a waste of a lot of water.  Why not have a poll on the website and let people vote?  I'm not hugely concerned about dust.

2. I think enforcing the 5x7 tarp size AND randomizing the numbers would fix it.  My main issue here (and I spoke with MANY people that have the same issue) is having to sleep outside and be sleep deprived just to get a decent number.  I'm on vacation here, so why are you making me work??  Hand out the numbers in a random order the night before, or an hour before the tarp run, or at the exact moment of the tarp run, but quit making people decide between sleep and a good tarp spot.  It ruins my vacation.

3. If you give repeat customers preference, it should be a discount on the tickets and not a better experience.

4. You sold too many damn tickets.  Period.  Too many people.  I'd rather pay more or not have a big name than have more people.

5. See #4

6. Yes.

7. Yes.

An answer to a question you didn't ask:  I have completely reversed my thinking on having "big name" bands.  When you book bands like Mumford and Cheese, you ARE going to get a younger, drunker, more disrespectful crowd.  If you want evidence, look at Sunday.  I don't know how many tickets you sold, but there were no "big" names, and it was way less crowded, and fewer drunk teenagers.  That's the crowd I'm looking for, and it does make a HUGE difference in the overall experience.  I noticed your sign over the stage says Bluegrass & Country.  That's what I'd like to see more of.

After that, I have to say that if you disregard the tarp/lack of sleep issue, I would give the planet a 98% on this festival.  Absolutely amazing overall and you STILL couldn't knock the smile off my face with a 2x4!

[BuckeyeDog]

I'll bite on the tarp issue as well. We managed to get around #500 each day, by getting there around 7 AM, ending up somwhere near the speakers on the right. Not too bad. But the size of the tarps is definitely an issue. We had a 9' x 12' which was dwarfed by the folks around us, and many of them were empty most of the day. People drop these huge tarps, then go up front to watch. If all you are going to do is leave a couple of chairs there, why bother bringing a large tarp?
Me, I love to people watch, and get a kick out of examining the type of chairs that folks bring. Most folks will bring inexpensive low backed chairs, since we know the beating these chairs will take anyway, and if you're like me, we give them away after the show since I'm nottaking them on a plane. But then you have some folks that will bring top of the line $200 chairs to sit in. We had one such couple in front of us at 10 AM, they were gone by 4 PM. They were certainly not hearty festivarians, just came to show off heir chairs. There really was only one real high chair in my area, but it was occupied by a woman who was about 8 months pregnant. She had her priorities in line.
Had a great festival.

 Listening to: YSMB Boatman

[Zoeonelove]

My 2 sense.....

1. Dust control - only if it affects the artist's ability to sing.  It's Telluride, not Aspen.

 

My man is still having problems breathing, still trying to regain his voice, and still trying to run a crew of 10+ guys at work today. Equal opportunity dust control, please. Further, if it bothers the campers in Town Park and Warner, it bothers the musicians....especially if they were camped in TP!

2. I like the idea of random numbers for the tarp line, but not for land rush - it's up to whoever gets there first and who can run the fastest for 10 day real estate (hence the name land rush)!!   But people did set their chairs up ridiculously early this year for the music on Thursday. I'm glad my man wakes up and stumbles over with the tarp at the sound of bagpipes each morning - or else it may not be such a fun festy   !!!  

3. You cannot necessarily privilege long time festival attendees because of the lack of documented information. However, by keeping the festival big, but not too big (i.e. Mumford, SCI, etc), this can assure that more long time attendees can get tickets. However, each year we all tend to complain about a big name act that takes all the tickets, but maybe we should just admit that TBF is the best festival in the world and that people might actually want to go to it!! Just QUIT TALKING ABOUT IT PEOPLE - we must keep this festy a secret!!!!   Too late I guess.....

4. I don't think the prices should be raised, but yet, I may be biased in answering that way.....

5. I didn't think that it was too crowded this year, I actually never experienced any sign of it except in the Town Park portolets. GROSS! They were BY FAR the worst in all 6 years of my attendance!!! I'm sure others will agree.....

6. Yes

7. ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!

Thanks for another great year!!!!

[duffy]

1. dust, what dust? obviously none of you have been to burningman, high sierra or any number of dustier festivals we have out west. i hardly noticed it at all, in fact my boogers were still kind of yellow all weekend.

2. please keep the whole festival grounds ga, i hate when the custies start getting preference, a nice thing about telluride is you dont really have vip, just the poser pit which is totally justified. vip brings an overall bad vibe of haves vs havenots. just limit tarp size, randomize lineup so everyone has a chance at a good spot from day to day. also do something to make the town park/warner line more fair with the outside line or else you risk people getting camping tickets and not camping, just using them to get a better spot in line. look how much space was wasted in warner field, no way there were 300 campers in there, more like 200.

3. no way on preference, another haves vs havenots that will alienate new festivarians. maybe sell a limited number of tickets at the festival the year prior for folks that know they are coming back....do it as a lottery like the sci latenight, maybe make them a bit more expensive to lower demand and as a tax for the peace of mind to those that get them and don't need to think about it come november/december.

4. increase the price if you have to, but find that sweet spot where you still sell out.

5. i dont think it was too crowded, just some people take up more space than they need. i've seen way worst at other festies. i thought lines for food, beer and merch were usually very chill and it was easy to move around and find space to boogie.

6. i think its strange you allot a certain amount of single days. most festivals sell as many 3-4 days as they can and when that slows down they sell single days. if you have to appease the locals then allot a small amount of local single day tickets.

7. let me guess, newgrass revival?

[Debbiefromtucson]

I even noticed problems with the main bath house.. I can't remember exactly what evening it was- either Friday or Sat BUT the ladies room was out of paper by around 8pm....

[Skubes]

...the Town Park portolets. GROSS! They were BY FAR the worst in all 6 years of my attendance!!! I'm sure others will agree.....

Disgusting doesn't begin to cover it.  Weren't they cleaned twice a day last year?

Anyway, off topic, but definitely worth addressing.

[completejohn]

This only proves that I think WAY too much about this.  But also that I love this fest!

1. Dust control - not a big factor to me.  Weather happens.

2.  Tarps - Oddfried has it right.  Random numbers (either using wristbands or some other way) plus real tarp enforcement.  But I'm up for experimenting with different procedures to see what works best.

3.  Preference for us old-timers.  I would personally love it, but don't see how it could work.  Making tickets available on Sunday afternoon for the next year?  Yes, I'm scared that my run of 13 fests in a row could run out when I lose the TP lottery next year, but short of life-time passes or premium seat licenses (like major league baseball does - a fee to be able to BUY tickets), I don't know of anyway to reward us old farts.  And maybe your idea of holiday passes is backwards.  What would happen if there was a higher ticket price in November, with the knowledge that there would be cheaper tickets available in December?

4.  Crowd reduction via price increase.  If you were my client (I'm in advertising and marketing) I would tell you to absolutely do this because price elasticity works.  I doubt that this year's instantaneous sellouts were a one-time shot.  There's not much reason to believe that your demand won't remain very high versus your limited supply.

But people depend upon PB for keeping prices low (it's part of your overall "brand") and your sponsors/vendors/local charities & merchants want MORE people there, not less.  So this is a tough call that only YOU can make. 

Higher prices might put more capital into play, and you would have to decide what to do with that.  It could justifiably go into your pocket, OR into hiring more expensive acts, capital improvements (more water trucks for the field, a couple extra buses, carbon buyouts, temporary cell towers/bandwidth, etc), higher salaries or a bigger paid staff, town relations (free concerts or charitable contributions), etc.

On the other hand, if it ain't broke, why fix it?  Hold down ticket prices and let the people who think the fest is "too crowded" just not come back.  But I doubt you would see even a small drop in demand.

5.  Too crowded?  I think what made it seem more crowded was the Kelty area.  Kelty's were being set up too close to the sponsor area, making the walkway between nearly non-existent.  The shelter people (minus Joe Cocker) tend to leave lots of space between each other.  Maybe just some self-policing (based on some new rules) could get them to squeeze together a little more to solve the problem.  But I do like that suggestion of a large shade structure inside the grounds.  That would eliminate the need for so many shelters and be a little more efficient in land use.  How about a mist system in that tent for those really hot (75 degrees!) days?

6.  Sell the limited single days before artist announcement?  Yes.  And I can't think of any other festival that could get away with this, as evidenced by this year's sellout of TP and WF prior to the lineup announcement.

7.  Tell us about bands that are likely coming next year?  You are SUCH a tease!

Again, thanks for listening!!!  Not too many people are going to agree with my responses, but that's what a discussion like this is all about.  Afterall, we are ALL huge fans and only want to make the best fest even better.


 Listening to: subdude Tommy Malone's new solo album - it's really, really good!

[Sunnyand70]

Meh.  Leave it alone.

Yeah, leave the tarp line alone. Keep the tarp size policy, but don't enforce it.

In other words, if it's not broke, don't fix it! 

[GonePickin]

I don't have time to list out answers to all your questions, even though I'd love to. I'll simply say that I've gotten lucky to score TP tickets at face the last few years, but my luck will run out at some point. I'll be faced with the choice of not attending TP, or paying higher than face, neither options are okay in my book. How to solve? completejohn had a good idea.

Start selling tickets at say $1000 in October. Go through 500 tickets that way, then sell the next 500 at $800, etc. Get down to maybe 5000 left and start the lottery up at regular price. I wouldn't pay a grand to stay in TP, but you bet I would gladly pay *Planet Bluegrass* a bit higher than face (maybe $500?) to guarantee a spot in TP. I get those without means will be hostile to this idea, and I understand that, just laying out what I'd like to see in the future, that would benefit me. May not be the best solution.