My observations of the line procedure

[upthecanyon]

Just wanted to contribute to this conversation, since it's something that's been bugging me for...well, EVERY year...

I had a most wonderful time this year, and really this line situation is the ONLY thing that I dislike about the festival. Other than that, kudos to the entire organization for another amazing year!

1) Just have to agree with the person who said it's a little silly to have to line up a day prior to the show, miss the  afternoon music, festivities, just to get a decent line number.  It would make so much more sense to randomize the line numbers, and just give a set time to pass them out to everyone. Then we could go back to our campsites and enjoy ourselves and fellow festivarians, rather than stressing out about the next day. While the Rockygrass method presents its own set of problems (people backtracking in order to get multiple line numbers), it's a much more sensible way to savor the WHOLE experience of the festival - not just line duty.

2) While tradition is important, a bad  idea is a bad idea, no matter how many years it's been in place. Planet Bluegrass has updated it's rules regarding ticket scalping and a number of other policies to adapt to changing times. No reason why the line policy can't evolve in kind.

All in all, I think this festival is about meeting new friends, playing music, and enjoying our limited vacation time to savor this oasis of beauty and music, NOT stressing out about line placement @ 6 a.m.  I usually camp at Town Park and therefore always have a great spot in the festival, so it's not like I'm just wanting a handout without working for it.  I'm fine with any spot in the festival, but it's weird to see the makeshift refugee camp that inevitably pops up upwards of 15 hours before gates open. Just my thoughts, thanks!

[mjsdank]

last time i heard this much whining it involved school girls and a trip to the mall

[Hot Sugar]

Here's something else to think about. Randomizing the numbers AND enforcing a strict 5x7 tarp size would really suck for anyone with more than 4 people in their party. If a large group can't put out two tarps next to each other, they will start bringing in much larger tarps.

Another thing to think about is that if a 5x7 tarp size is strictly enforced, tarp hoppers will suffer. If people don't have as much space, they will be less willing to let others come join them. If a group of 3 only has a 5x7 tarp, they might not have room for the occasional tarpless wanderer. And forget about a larger group tarp hopping.

 Listening to: Sam Bush

[sarajomo]

 

last time i heard this much whining it involved school girls and a trip to the mall

[FaceOnMars]

last time i heard this much whining it involved school girls and a trip to the mall

Maybe, but it was like the "eye of the hurricane" in this section of cyberspace during the festival ... hardly a peep from anyone.

I will personally always try to adapt to the circumstances and have as much fun as possible during the festival & I'm sure others are similar.

Nonetheless, we see what we see and make mental notes all while dealing with things on the fly.  At some level, we are good at "holding things in" at the moment in the name of having fun. 

So if we're going to naturally overlook things during the festival -- almost by reflex -- to keep the good vibes flowing when it counts, then I think it's productive to reflect upon some things during the other 361 days ... at least as a "miniature catharsis" of sorts.

[Debbiefromtucson]

How would a  5X7 work for a family?  I know with my 2 teens- 5X7 and we would be breathing on each other but more importantly what about those families say with 4 little kids? 

[FtFunFan]

Three simple steps to fix the tarp and tarp line issues:

1) Mark off the section closest to the stage from the fence to the soundboard (spreading in an arc of the same radius as the soundboard around to the sides) that is for standing and dancing only.  No tarps, no chairs, no sitting.  This is where people come to dance when their favorite band is playing.  I guarantee you the bands would prefer this too...many of the bands in the morning and early afternoon were playing to a field of empty tarps nearest the stage...how much of a letdown is that?

2) Randomize the tarp line numbers and hand them out something like 1 hour before the doors open.  This won't give folks very much time to sell numbers, etc.

3) Enforce a tarp size limit.  If this tarp size is too small to accommodate your group and/or your family, send in 2 runners with 2 tarps.  The chosen tarp size should be able to fit 4 chairs with a little extra room for everyone's stuff.

[ShatteredArm]

My $0.02 is to just enforce the tarp size limit... If you need a bigger space, you need to have one person in line per extra desired tarp space.  It seems to me the problem is that a very large camp just needs one person in line per day, so they don't have as much skin in the game as, say, a party of two or three.

I personally have no qualm with the large vacant areas, though, as it makes it easier for me to get up close during the sets I want to see, without having to participate in the line madness at all.  But I'm usually a party of one.

[Hot Sugar]

2) Randomize the tarp line numbers and hand them out something like 1 hour before the doors open.  This won't give folks very much time to sell numbers, etc.

3) Enforce a tarp size limit.  If this tarp size is too small to accommodate your group and/or your family, send in 2 runners with 2 tarps.  The chosen tarp size should be able to fit 4 chairs with a little extra room for everyone's stuff.

Again, if they were to randomize the numbers, sending in multiple runners simply wouldn't work. The music is a huge draw for me, but even better is getting to share the music with so many of my very favorite people. The two runners will not be able to get anywhere near each other if they randomize the numbers.

[FaceOnMars]

In a reserved seating situation for almost any concert, try pulling up a pair of tickets vs. 8 tickets (grouped together) from a ticketing system (i.e. Ticketmaster, Frontgate, etc.).  My suspicion is that on average, a request for a pair will invariably wind up with better seats vs. larger requests.

Try walking into a popular restaurant with a party of 12 at 7:30pm on a Saturday night without a reservation; my suspicion is that you'll be waiting longer than a party of 2 or 4, and might be sent to the "back room" which can accommodate larger groups.

Definitely not saying that large groups should be sent to the back of the line @ TBF, but rather that expectations of everyone all being together AND being located up front are rather unrealistic if the playing field were to be leveled (randomization & smaller tarps) and rules enforced more closely.

Nonetheless, two+ tarp runners could preemptively/strategically plan out a spot (maybe in the middle/back) where there's a high likelihood they could rendezvous and join tarps together.  Worst case scenario: you have more than one tarp located in different spots in the venue & members of a large camp get to shuffling the deck a bit over the course of a day.

In reality, maybe a 5x7 isn't large enough for larger families greater than 4 ... perhaps a 6x8 or 8x10 is more realistic for larger groups.

[BillyBeru]

In a reserved seating situation for almost any concert, try pulling up a pair of tickets vs. 8 tickets (grouped together) from a ticketing system (i.e. Ticketmaster, Frontgate, etc.).  My suspicion is that on average, a request for a pair will invariably wind up with better seats vs. larger requests.

Try walking into a popular restaurant with a party of 12 at 7:30pm on a Saturday night without a reservation; my suspicion is that you'll be waiting longer than a party of 2 or 4, and might be sent to the "back room" which can accommodate larger groups.

The analogy between TBF and these scenarios is so far off it is laughable.

If you were running the show you would kill off a large reason why so many people year after year return to TBF- to see the myriad of friends they have made there. A big reason for TBF's popularity is this tradition, of being part of large camps.

There are these claims of conspiracy by large camps. I can only speak for Run a Muck- we have a camp of 25+ and we lay down two 8x10's. do the math.Not too much land taken for so many people.

[FtFunFan]

Perhaps a more appropriate analogy: when Red Rocks used to allow tarps, on several occasions for sold out General Admission shows, we'd get in line at 7am and end up being first through the gates.  We had an enormous tarp, enough for 30+ people.  Instead of trying to take up huge amounts of space in the first 3 rows, we would drop back quite a bit, to row ~12 or 15, even though if our crew had been small, like 2 or 4 people, we could've been front row.

Similarly, those with gigantic crews at TBF could drop back a ways and put down their tarp so that when their friend arrives with another tarp, it could be placed adjacent to or very near it (as explained by faceonmars).  There's no reason why having a large number of friends should automatically give you an advantage over those going solo or with 2 or 3 others. 

[Debbiefromtucson]

I think I just realized that there may be some confusion... I noticed that many of the historical camps are kinda close together.. Perhaps, people are confused that this is all "one giant crew"  w/ many tarps since we all hug, dance, and move around from tarp to tarp freely...

[FaceOnMars]

In a reserved seating situation for almost any concert, try pulling up a pair of tickets vs. 8 tickets (grouped together) from a ticketing system (i.e. Ticketmaster, Frontgate, etc.).  My suspicion is that on average, a request for a pair will invariably wind up with better seats vs. larger requests.

Try walking into a popular restaurant with a party of 12 at 7:30pm on a Saturday night without a reservation; my suspicion is that you'll be waiting longer than a party of 2 or 4, and might be sent to the "back room" which can accommodate larger groups.

The analogy between TBF and these scenarios is so far off it is laughable.

If you were running the show you would kill off a large reason why so many people year after year return to TBF- to see the myriad of friends they have made there. A big reason for TBF's popularity is this tradition, of being part of large camps.

There are these claims of conspiracy by large camps. I can only speak for Run a Muck- we have a camp of 25+ and we lay down two 8x10's. do the math.Not too much land taken for so many people.

Billy, welcome back!  These examples were never intended to be "strict analogies", but rather to illustrate issues that arise when you have large groups intermingling with a much greater number of smaller groups in limited capacity situations.

I think it's great that your "camp" limits the tarp space you throw down to a reasonable area!

I don't believe it's an "yes or no" proposition regarding the existence of large camps ... I don't believe this is the issue here.  Rather, as FtFunFan has illustrated, it might simply be a matter of making adjustments of one's expectations regarding location.   If there were to be a randomization of numbers, you'd still have a great chance of joining your two tarps.

As it stands, the leverage a large group (and any individual member) has over the system vs. smaller groups for landing primo real estate is highly disproportionate ... and is but only one component of how things have gotten out of hand.

[Hot Sugar]

Also speaking for Run a Muck, we don't ever aim for right up front. We are in the low back section, but rarely in front of the sound board.