Anti-Scalping ticket idea

[AnythingAtAll]

This is an idea that's been cookin' awhile.  Recent discussions on another thread made me want to refine it and throw it out there, but I didn't want to hijack that thread for this particular idea.  Ok folks, I want your best shots at blowing this idea out of the water.  There may be something simple I'm overlooking- as a friend of mine said: I may be dumb, but I'm slow. 

The basis of "flash seats" or "flash tickets" is to keep a ticket from being a tradeable item that's out of control once it leaves the promoter/ticketing company's hands.  Many "flash seat" sellers have secondary markets, but it's actually just to drive profits back to the promoter.  But for Planet Bluegrass' purposes, they're not looking for extra profits, just control- so let's keep the basic idea of a flash ticket, which is kind of like a will-call for the internet.

Now, they need to be tradeable.  Plans change, things happen.

But the tickets don't really exist- they're in a database.  How do you stop money exchanging hands on the secondary market?  All money is exchanged through Planet Bluegrass (this is the biggest pain in the rear, but it's critical.)

A sell is like a return with designated dibs.

Example- I've got 4 tickets (flash seats) and want to sell two to Billy.  Right now my ID has 4 tickets attached.  Via web or phone, I "return" two tickets to PB but designate Billy (in some unique way) as the new owner.  Regardless of what Billy does, I eventually get my refund from PB for two tickets and I'm done.  Billy has a certain amount of time after my "sell" (but would have to wait until at least the next day) to contact PB, pay for, and claim the tix.    Billy might even pay PB a reasonable extra overhead charge for the program.  NOW GET THIS- If Billy backs out- the tickets are treated like a regular return.  I, as the seller, have to be willing to receive face for the tickets. (If Billy makes a good faith effort to pay and there's some SNAFU, there can be considerations for that, of course)

Now, nothing is going to stop a work-around involving a willing buyer and seller (Craigslist).  This system, however, requires a level of trust that normally doesn't exist among complete strangers.  In addition, it gives PB a chance to educate all secondary market buyers on their "no scalping" stance before the deal is done.

A system like this would kill Ebay and ticket broker scalpers almost immediately.  They couldn't trust that their customers would follow through with the deal and they'd lose tickets back to the returned stack.
 
So, waddya think?  I'm not saying the time is right yet, but many are starting to feel it's coming sooner or later.  Would something like this work?  What have I missed?

[FaceOnMars]

AAA:  I like the way you're trying to think this through with flash tickets.  Transfers are always going to be the sticky wicket.    Along the same lines as you've alluded to, unexpected events happen where the person who made the purchase for a group of four with a cc can't physically be present (i.e. flight was canceled) while the rest of the group are @ the box office ready and eager to get their wristbands.  What then?  I'm not sure how PB handled such scenarios for Phish?

I think your idea of having PB serve as a persistent hub for legitimate ticket exchanges (for a fee) is probably the way it would have to work.    What's to stop a craigs list seller from saying "pay me $300 extra (on the side) and I'll release this ticket in your name?"  Unless I'm mistaken, I think this is the sort of thing you were referring to regarding a "work around".   In such a situation, yes, it would involve a high degree of trust for the buyer to work outside the system without having any clue as to whether the tickets are available & will actually be transferred.  However, if the connection is made in person in front of the box office, trust becomes less of an issue and scalpers could probably still game the system.  In any case, there's potential for heated conflict and much disappointment ... along the same lines as someone who got stuck paying for a merchant pass (without the necessary token/card) last year on the street.  PB would need to make it clear in no uncertain terms about their ticketing policy with respect to transfers.   Even so, I'm sure people will get burned, but I don't know if there's anything which can be done about this.

Maybe the answer is to simply not allow the luxury of being able to resell a ticket under any circumstances.  I know it might be a very hardlined approach, but it solves a lot of issues.  The unused tickets go back into the pool of tickets which PB can then resell to a waitlist.

Regardless of transfer policy, I think it would be mandatory to list all parties' identities for multiple tickets purchases under a single order ... providing those names with at least some level of "clearance" in case the ticket purchaser does not make to the venue.  In such a case, maybe another in the group gets to add their credit card and be the "primary person" who swipes their card & the person who couldn't make it on time has the option of returning their ticket or having it held for them.



 

[AnythingAtAll]

AAA:  I like the way you're trying to think this through with flash tickets.  Transfers are always going to be the sticky wicket.    Along the same lines as you've alluded to, unexpected events happen where the person who made the purchase for a group of four with a cc can't physically be present (i.e. flight was canceled) while the rest of the group are @ the box office ready and eager to get their wristbands.  What then?  I'm not sure how PB handled such scenarios for Phish?

What happens in Will Call in situations like this?  Last minute stuff would have case-by-case logical processes.  Scalpers are very uncomfortable with last minute deals when they are not personally at the venue.  Also, there would still be the personally identifying info for the cc holder with the last minute problem, usually enough trust would exist for that person to share that info with others as last minute validation.

I think your idea of having PB serve as a persistent hub for legitimate ticket exchanges (for a fee) is probably the way it would have to work.    What's to stop a craigs list seller from saying "pay me $300 extra (on the side) and I'll release this ticket in your name?"  Unless I'm mistaken, I think this is the sort of thing you were referring to regarding a "work around".   In such a situation, yes, it would involve a high degree of trust for the buyer to work outside the system without having any clue as to whether the tickets are available & will actually be transferred.

Exactly- but, that's why I'm thinking that PB shouldn't let the whole transaction happen at once.  As a buyer, would you trust that?  Pay me now, I'll do this and you can finish up tomorrow and you'll need to pay PB face for the tickets...that'll go well.  And the website or PB person can re-iterate PB's no scalping policy one last time.

  However, if the connection is made in person in front of the box office, trust becomes less of an issue and scalpers could probably still game the system.  In any case, there's potential for heated conflict and much disappointment ... along the same lines as someone who got stuck paying for a merchant pass (without the necessary token/card) last year on the street.  PB would need to make it clear in no uncertain terms about their ticketing policy with respect to transfers.   Even so, I'm sure people will get burned, but I don't know if there's anything which can be done about this.

In TBF's case, this idea pretty much assumes that the vast majority of scalpers aren't willing to make the trip and pay travel/lodging costs to do so.

Maybe the answer is to simply not allow the luxury of being able to resell a ticket under any circumstances.  I know it might be a very hardlined approach, but it solves a lot of issues.  The unused tickets go back into the pool of tickets which PB can then resell to a waitlist.

That would be an extreme, many purchase looking to cover other camp-mates and the late exchanges among festivarians is actually a positive part of the experience.

Regardless of transfer policy, I think it would be mandatory to list all parties' identities for multiple tickets purchases under a single order ... providing those names with at least some level of "clearance" in case the ticket purchaser does not make to the venue.  In such a case, maybe another in the group gets to add their credit card and be the "primary person" who swipes their card & the person who couldn't make it on time has the option of returning their ticket or having it held for them.

Maybe, let's think about this part to see if we could figure out a good way to validate while not opening up too big a work-around for scalpers.

[JoeBu]

Example- I've got 4 tickets (flash seats) and want to sell two to Billy.  Right now my ID has 4 tickets attached.  Via web or phone, I "return" two tickets to PB but designate Billy (in some unique way) as the new owner.  Regardless of what Billy does, I eventually get my refund from PB for two tickets and I'm done.  Billy has a certain amount of time after my "sell" (but would have to wait until at least the next day) to contact PB, pay for, and claim the tix.    Billy might even pay PB a reasonable extra overhead charge for the program.  NOW GET THIS- If Billy backs out- the tickets are treated like a regular return.  I, as the seller, have to be willing to receive face for the tickets. (If Billy makes a good faith effort to pay and there's some SNAFU, there can be considerations for that, of course)

I think this is the ideal scenario, although some people are not comfortable with the whole flash tickets idea I think it is the best anti-scalper spray there currently is.

I would add one improvement to your example.  Say I have 4 tickets and I want to sell them to Billy, I send him (via the ticket portal) an invitation to buy my tickets at face.  He then has a window (ideally of the sellers choosing) to complete the transaction, then the tickets are transferred electronically immediately and I am refunded my money.  Only the person who scans that card at the ticket window will be able to use the tickets (although you have the ability to put another card on file at the ticket portal in the case of stolen/lost cards).  In addition I could sell my tickets to a stranger for face on the ticket portal site and the transaction would be the same.

This allows for the buyer to be 100% sure they are getting legitimate tickets and even on the day of show you could buy from your hotel and pick them up immediately at the ticket office.

Tickethorse already employs this technology, although they allow for selling above face and transferring of tickets without a funds transfer.  I've bought Jimmy Buffett and Rockies tickets thru their interface (below face) and it has worked out great.


But if we're talking like this we might as well ask Planet Bluegrass to provide all Festivarians free Health Care, because without outsourcing this to "the cloud" it would cost about as much as Health Care for a ticketing system that's used once a year.   


That's why I still vote for the old $ order system.....or I guess the status quo cause I've been able to get tickets with only minor inconveniences thusfar. 

[Iriecycle]

Anti-scalping idea #1 electronic tickets only picked up at venue, limited number/ person.
#2 Good Ole Mail Order, with consideration of years of artistic cards and envelopes.
Volunteers to fill orders?

 Listening to: Jack Johnson - Home

[FaceOnMars]

AAA:  I like the way you're trying to think this through with flash tickets.  Transfers are always going to be the sticky wicket.    Along the same lines as you've alluded to, unexpected events happen where the person who made the purchase for a group of four with a cc can't physically be present (i.e. flight was canceled) while the rest of the group are @ the box office ready and eager to get their wristbands.  What then?  I'm not sure how PB handled such scenarios for Phish?

What happens in Will Call in situations like this?  Last minute stuff would have case-by-case logical processes.  Scalpers are very uncomfortable with last minute deals when they are not personally at the venue.  Also, there would still be the personally identifying info for the cc holder with the last minute problem, usually enough trust would exist for that person to share that info with others as last minute validation.

I think your idea of having PB serve as a persistent hub for legitimate ticket exchanges (for a fee) is probably the way it would have to work.    What's to stop a craigs list seller from saying "pay me $300 extra (on the side) and I'll release this ticket in your name?"  Unless I'm mistaken, I think this is the sort of thing you were referring to regarding a "work around".   In such a situation, yes, it would involve a high degree of trust for the buyer to work outside the system without having any clue as to whether the tickets are available & will actually be transferred.

Exactly- but, that's why I'm thinking that PB shouldn't let the whole transaction happen at once.  As a buyer, would you trust that?  Pay me now, I'll do this and you can finish up tomorrow and you'll need to pay PB face for the tickets...that'll go well.  And the website or PB person can re-iterate PB's no scalping policy one last time.

  However, if the connection is made in person in front of the box office, trust becomes less of an issue and scalpers could probably still game the system.  In any case, there's potential for heated conflict and much disappointment ... along the same lines as someone who got stuck paying for a merchant pass (without the necessary token/card) last year on the street.  PB would need to make it clear in no uncertain terms about their ticketing policy with respect to transfers.   Even so, I'm sure people will get burned, but I don't know if there's anything which can be done about this.

In TBF's case, this idea pretty much assumes that the vast majority of scalpers aren't willing to make the trip and pay travel/lodging costs to do so.

Maybe the answer is to simply not allow the luxury of being able to resell a ticket under any circumstances.  I know it might be a very hardlined approach, but it solves a lot of issues.  The unused tickets go back into the pool of tickets which PB can then resell to a waitlist.

That would be an extreme, many purchase looking to cover other camp-mates and the late exchanges among festivarians is actually a positive part of the experience.

Regardless of transfer policy, I think it would be mandatory to list all parties' identities for multiple tickets purchases under a single order ... providing those names with at least some level of "clearance" in case the ticket purchaser does not make to the venue.  In such a case, maybe another in the group gets to add their credit card and be the "primary person" who swipes their card & the person who couldn't make it on time has the option of returning their ticket or having it held for them.

Maybe, let's think about this part to see if we could figure out a good way to validate while not opening up too big a work-around for scalpers.

I see what you're saying about a wait time throwing a wrench into the scalper's normal pathway.  This is akin to another idea I read recently:

I think the best solution. Get people to register first with a Credit Card .. days or weeks in advance. Weed out the database of duplicates (name, address, IP, mac address even). Issue individual buying codes.

Then have an online rush for tickets.

Weed out duplicates again.

Then make people show up with the credit card and ID at the day of the event.

http://ratdog.org/community/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=294386&hilit=scalp&start=20

As far as "not allowing any aftermarket transfers" being extreme:  I agree that it's definitely hardlined position & would affect a positive aspect of the experience in terms of being able to "personally grease the wheels" for an extended network of friends/family.   However, when you take a step back and look at the fundamentals, the notion of ticket exchange is not being done away with, but rather "centralized" in a more orderly fashion.   We seem to be OK with this sort of system re: organ donation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XACKoTu0Gw ), why not TBF tickets?  I know the standard answer as well as anyone, but maybe we just can't have it both ways if we're really serious about putting the kabash on scalping?

Another way to approach the general issue is to maybe look at things in terms of any given festivarian building up "credibility" (over time) in terms of tracking ticket purchases and monitoring actual attendance with said tickets.  The big brother approach might allow an iphone app with geo-positioning to automatically issue a "credit" for a festivarian who's bought a ticket and is detected inside the festival boundaries.  As festivarian's build up "credits" over the course of the years, maybe they're granted more credibility in the PB ticketing system and afforded more lattitude in exchanges and so forth .... maybe even with promotions & such too.   A less big brother approach might simply allow a "sign-in" once inside the festival with a verification of wristband # & photo ID.   This could also simultaneously automatically populate the push pin map as a side benefit (among others provided there's a "firewall" with respect to use of said info).

Still, any of the above will require a fair bit of effort to implement ... and it's also a bit of a change in terms of tradition and such.

[ebb01]

I'd definitely be in favor of using Flashseats.  My family has season tickets for the Nuggets and Flashseats are available for it (since its owned by the owners of the team).  Its very easy to use, allows easy transfers between people, and have never had a glitch using it.  Basically, whoever is the final user of the ticket(s) has to link a specific form of ID with the ticket(s), like a credit card or drivers license, through their website.  When you get to the venue, you just hand that ID to the ticket taker, who runs it through a device that looks like a small retail credit card machine, and your ticket prints out.  At TBF, I guess it could print a receipt and you'd take that to get your correct wristband.

Yes it also has a secondary sale/auction market built in for people who want to sell their tickets, but it works the same way with the ID for control, and I'm sure there could be a limit built in for what the maximum ticket price could be listed at, since you don't have all the different location prices like you do at an arena.  This will be our first TBF, and I was surprised to get my tickets so early.  Now I have to worry about losing them!  I'd much rather use the electronic method, and this would definitely reduce scalping to a minimum, especially when considering the remoteness of Telluride, and eliminate lost tickets.   

[HuckinFappy]

and eliminate lost tickets.   

Ooohh...or forgotten tickets.  PB is so "green", but how many extra carbon offstes do we need to buy to account for all the "OH CRAP!! We're 4 hours into our trip to Telluride and we FORGOT THE TICKETS!", when people turn around, go home and get them!?

 

[Mark of Bloomington]

I am still not 100% convinced that we have a major scalping problem with our TBF tickets yet.  Or I am not convinced enough to suggests any drastic changes to the way PB does its ticket sales.  I feel one of the self-limiting features of Telluride is the scarcity of lodging for us 10,000.  Those people willing to pay several hundreds of dollars above face value for a TBF ticket are not the type of people wanting to stay in the campgrounds, in my opinion.  They may be shelling out their money for tickets in the late spring, only to find there are no rooms left in the inn.  For this reason, we book our room for the next Festival, before we leave Telluride the Festival before.  Maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part, or my head is firmly buried in the sand.  I am hoping that it was just all of us buying our tickets earlier this year.  There may always be a few bad apples in the bag, but I still like apples.

[AnythingAtAll]

I am still not 100% convinced that we have a major scalping problem with our TBF tickets yet.  Or I am not convinced enough to suggests any drastic changes to the way PB does its ticket sales.  I feel one of the self-limiting features of Telluride is the scarcity of lodging for us 10,000.  Those people willing to pay several hundreds of dollars above face value for a TBF ticket are not the type of people wanting to stay in the campgrounds, in my opinion.  They may be shelling out their money for tickets in the late spring, only to find there are no rooms left in the inn.  For this reason, we book our room for the next Festival, before we leave Telluride the Festival before.  Maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part, or my head is firmly buried in the sand.  I am hoping that it was just all of us buying our tickets earlier this year.  There may always be a few bad apples in the bag, but I still like apples.

Hi Mark,

I'm not saying "now's the time, the time is now" at all.  But, the trend over the last few years is disturbing.  The popularity of the festival combined with the relative scarcity of tickets creates a supply/demand situation that scalpers will have a hard time ignoring.  The red flag this year isn't numbers, it's the asking prices- they're ridiculously off the charts and I hope like hell no one is willing to pay them.

The intent of this thread is to go down the rabbit hole of the flash tickets concept and see if it's acceptable to the community on some/any level.  I have no idea if it's necessary or feasible for PB to implement, but I do know they're listening.

I hope lodging is a limiting factor also, but the demand is starting to say otherwise.