Scalpers-is TBF an endangered species?!

[naughtybrown]

Myself, husband and kids have been attending the Telluride Bluegrass Festival for the past 4 years.  My husband has been a devoted festival goer even long before meeting me.  On different years we have had other family members join us at this annual family event from my 75 year old father who suffered a severe stroke 6 years ago but traveled from Ireland and still raves about how he enjoyed Arlo Gutrie to a friend who came over from Australia to enjoy the experience. My 7 year old daughter has grown up hula-hooping by the stage and my 5 year old son constantly talks about Gumbo Woobly and finally having the courage to enter the talent show this year.  I seem to spend so much time in the kids craft tent that I have both kids and parents approaching me to paint their face next!  Each year we've had a wonderful experience from camping in Town Park to getting surprise back stage passes for The Frames show. (My sister's husband is a sound engineer in Ireland and seems to know people with great 'connections'!!).  Each year we've bought our tickets in January after we've recovered from the shocking expense of Christmas......
 
......so what a disappointment this year to discover what has evolved with the ticket sales.  I realize how difficult it must be to be fair with ticket sales but it makes me sick to see the tickets which have obviously been purchased by scalpers available for resale for ridiculous amounts of money on sites such as Stubhub and Ebay! Our initial reaction was to forget about TBF and not be part of this ridiculousness but its hard to turn your back on such a great, family friendly event.  We would love to attend the festival every year but what has happened this year makes this difficult and puts a dampener on the true spirit of the festival.  Still we will enter the lottery in February and hope for the best. But seriously, something needs to change.  How about allowing festival goers who you know have attended the festival to sign up for the next years tickets at the current years box office.  We would gladly book our tickets a year in advance.  This way you know the person signing up is a true festival goer and not a faceless scalper.  Just a thought!

Thanks for listening,
Yvonne

 Listening to: The Dirk Powell Band-great show at The Conway Muse, WA last weekend!

[Pilgrim99]

How about allowing festival goers who you know have attended the festival to sign up for the next years tickets at the current years box office.  We would gladly book our tickets a year in advance.  This way you know the person signing up is a true festival goer and not a faceless scalper.  Just a thought!

Thanks for listening,
Yvonne

Looks like we have similar festival experiences, though I did get 4-day passes when they went on sale...after the timeouts and crashes, of course. I can see the arguments against this idea, being a bit elitist and favoring some over others, but if it were an option, I'd do it.

 Listening to: the 'dusters

[JoeBu]

I feel your pain and hope you make it in.  That said I have to argue some of your points.

1)  I don't think it's known yet that scalpers bought up a bunch of tickets.

2)  I don't see any difference in buying your tickets in December v. June.  If you bought them when they went on-sale this is a non-issue. (I have a calendar reminder set to remind me to buy 2013 tickets)

3)  Creating a class of festivarian's that are allowed to buy tickets before others can is against what I believe this fest and it's people stand for.

4)  Scalpers only buy tickets if they can sell them, lets not buy from the secondary market.

5)  Writing so eloquently about your TBF experiences and sharing with others on this board will in all likelihood provide you with the face value tickets you desire.

Good luck in the Lotto...and if it doesn't work out, put a reminder on your Calendar for 2013. 

[Hippie]

And THIS should be our "watchtower". Never pay more than face value for a a ticket...

4)  Scalpers only buy tickets if they can sell them, lets not buy from the secondary market.

[Rob_from_Ohio]

There are about 125 4-day passes on Stub Hub ranging from $380 to $1300.  There are a few dozen more floating around on various ticket resale sites.  So let's say there are 250 4 day passes floating around on the resale market.  That comes out to like 3% of the 4 day passes available via resale and/or "scalpers".  As much as we want to blame scalpers for the quick sellout this year, I'm not sure that's really the problem.  It just seems like if scalpers were to blame, there would be a lot more passes for sale.  I don't know, maybe scalpers are holding them until closer to June to try to make people panic and get a higher price. 

But then again, maybe, just maybe, people have found out that there's no place better than Telluride for the summer solstice.  Maybe our biggest competition for tickets is each other and there really is no Great Scalper Caper of 2012.

 Listening to: Duke Junior & The Smokey Boots

[FaceOnMars]

Even 250 scalpers are too much as far as I'm concerned ... especially if they're reselling tickets for upwards of 8x face value.   I'm not sure any of us really knows the true extent of the "after market" ... which has apparently become more of a presence at the point of sale (generally speaking - see article below).  I think we're only guessing at this point, but some good guesses would have it that wherever there's a  high demand limited supply marketplace, scalpers are absolutely sure to be present.  One can't just "talk this away" as being a non issue.

The more I consider this issue in general, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that both event promoters and ticketing entities have a responsibility to mitigate at least certain varieties of scalpers and in some cases ought to be compelled to adopt the most stringent measures against such practices.   I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that online ticketing is basically in it's "infancy" in a certain sense.    I don't believe Dave at the Music Store would ever allow himself to be put in a headlock by a scalper while the perpetrator's partner started ringing up dozens of ticket sales for the tag team, while the line of event goers were stuck in line waiting to buy tickets.  In other words, we're quick to squelch some things which go down in "real life" as being completely unacceptable ... yet somehow we're more quick to accept (defeat) in the online/virtual world.

Again, this is mostly a general comment/rant about the whole scalping situation related to online ticket sales.   The Springsteen article/blog entry kind of jarred me on this disparity of perception.  What gets me is that many promoters & ticketing agencies are aware of how the internet has accelerated the presence of organized/sophisticated scalping, but aren't necessarily willing to take the necessary measures to mitigate such.

With respect to the TBF, I'm now convinced that as long as we're going to be facing high demand with limited supply that there's got to be something more aggressive inserted in the process if it's going to have any impact.

As much as I personally try to avoid will call at all costs, I'd be very much in favor of having a system in place such as there was with the Phish shows in Telluride ... where you had to have your credit card present to get your wristband placed directly on your wrist prior to show (could even be the day prior).  Moreover, I'd be wiling to pay an additional $1+ per ticket (or whatever) to fund such a program.   I also think that if PG were to adopt such a program across the board (for all of their events) it might serve as an example to the larger industry of a viable model to put the kabash on scalping.


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/01/springsteen_ticketmaster_scalp.html

Bruce Springsteen fan Bill Dame knew something was wrong yesterday when his four computers were frozen for two hours by a "Your wait time is 15 minutes" message on the Ticketmaster website.

The Howell resident was using two desktops, an iPad and a laptop to buy tickets to Springsteen’s upcoming concerts at the Izod Center in East Rutherford.

"They were blinking, almost like there was an electric short in the house," Dame, 59, said. "After an hour and 45 minutes, my wife got an error message. Something definitely was different."

Ticketmaster said its website was attacked by scalpers using sophisticated computer programs that generated 2.5 times the traffic it had seen for any major sale during the last year.

"Big acts mean big fan interest. Unfortunately this also means that scalpers are out in full force," Ticketmaster said in a statement. "Scalpers were using sophisticated computer programs to assault our systems and secure tickets with the sole intention of selling them in the resale market."

The attack on Ticketmaster.com interfered with the sale of tickets to the April 3 and April 4 concerts at Izod and the May 2 show at the Prudential Center in Newark, part of the first leg of Springsteen’s upcoming "Wrecking Ball" tour.

"We anticipate and prepare for volume, but what we experienced today was a highly suspicious source of traffic, and there was exponentially more traffic than other similar days with major ‘onsales,’ " Ticketmaster spokeswoman Jacqueline Peterson said.

Rep. Bill Pascrell (D-8th Dist.) said consumers need to be protected from scalpers using high-speed computers.

"We’ve got to take a very, very careful look at the use of high-tech computer programs. While many fans were unable to get tickets today, many brokers were able to get their hands on good seats ... and put them up on secondary ticket sellers’ websites," said Pascrell, who will re-introduce federal legislation to improve oversight of the ticket industry.

The sophisticated programs, known as "bots," outwit online ticketing services restrictions on the number of tickets an individual can buy to a specific concert. By flooding the ticketing service at the start of the so-called onsale, the programs essentially block out consumers and buy up the inventory at lightning speed.

Minutes after yesterday’s sales began, thousands of the $98 tickets — which cost $114 once service fees were added — were listed at prices up to $6,600 on multiple secondary market websites.

"It’s so unfair and so frustrating," Marla Carleen said. "You know that these tickets are being siphoned off, somehow, some way."

Carleen, 55, of New Providence, wanted to buy tickets for herself and her three teenage daughters.

"How is it possible that in one or two minutes the venue is sold out?" Carleen asked, echoing the disbelief of many Springsteen fans. "It’s not possible unless someone is doing something with these tickets."

Springsteen acknowledged the problem on his website, brucespringsteen.net.

"We know that many of you have been having trouble getting tickets on this morning’s on-sales," the statement said. It was followed by an early explanation from Ticketmaster, the world’s largest ticketing service.

The three New Jersey concerts are part of the 19-date tour that kicks off March 18 in Atlanta in support of Springsteen’s 17th studio album, "Wrecking Ball," which goes on sale March 6. Springsteen and the band then head to Europe for 32 performances through July 31.

Tickets to the April 6 and April 9 shows at Madison Square Garden also went on sale yesterday, but Peterson said the website’s issues were fixed by then. Tickets for concerts in Tampa, Fla.; Boston; Philadelphia; Washington, D.C.; Detroit; Buffalo, N.Y.; Albany, N.Y.; and Cleveland go on sale today.

[Debbiefromtucson]

Perhaps, we need to go back to the old days where if you wanted tickets, you waited in line for as long as you felt necessary before the went on sale....or in PB's case, you had to actually mail a check by the set postmark and all....

[Jackalope]

Perhaps, we need to go back to the old days where if you wanted tickets, you waited in line for as long as you felt necessary before the went on sale....or in PB's case, you had to actually mail a check by the set postmark and all....

Similar complaints from recent Phish tours.. I stood no chance at 4 nights of a new years run.  But in the days of mail order, -- I can never remember being turned down.  While the internet has made some thing's easier, it's also made a lot of easy things MUCH HARDER!! 

Peace.

[JoeBu]

I don't think the Springsteen example really applies to the TBF situation, but rather the industry as a whole. 

In general I'm a big fan of the whole "flash tickets" idea, although as you see with Ticket Horse, flash seats don't stop the scalpers at all.  In fact Ticket Horse even supplies it's own secondary market website to resell flash seats.

I have no idea what kind of $ would go into implementing flash seats for TBF, but I would support non-transferable flash seats...this especially makes sense with PB's return policy.  I would be willing to pay extra for this service, but like I said earlier it's not like people were shut out by bots flooding the website.  Tickets were available for 3 weeks....emails were sent out warning people of the fast sale etc.

So FoM, I think your point is valid, but not applicable to this particular situation.

and Jackalope, I was never shut out of Phish Mail Order, and have never won an online lottery since it went into place...0 for 36. 

I know it's inconvenient for all involved, but IMO the best possible scenario is the old Phish Model.  If you want Town Park or Warner camping, you get a money order and mail it in.  Scalpers wont put the money up front without the guarantee of tickets and only the hard core are going to put their cash up front.  Any moron can put in a CC # with no risk, but only people who want to be there will put in cash. 

But like I said, that means more overhead for PB and it's a PITA for Festivarians....I personally don't think it's THAT bad yet, but it could get there some day.

   

[Debbiefromtucson]

Can someone tell an "old person" what a Flash ticket is...LOL   And, ummm,PB had that model way before Phish...

[JoeBu]

Can someone tell an "old person" what a Flash ticket is...LOL   And, ummm,PB had that model way before Phish...

Wait....Phish didn't invent mail order ticketing?     Just using that as an example as it was mentioned above. 

Flash tickets mean there are no physical tickets, you swipe your Credit Card at the gate/ticket stand and your tickets print out of one of those ticket scanner thingys.....I've used this several times, it works great. 

[HuckinFappy]

And a little band with the initiald GD had it before PB 

It's true.  In the days of mail order, I could get myself into 18 nights in a row for Dead shows, and never worry about it.  I also always got into TBF before the lottery...now we manage to get in there every year, but not any thanks to PB...it's our friends and family that get us in. 

One thing that really niggles at me....we all make it harder on everyone at lottery time, feeding this whole cycle.  I found out a friend of mine was pretty bummed because he went   "0 for 12" in the lottery this year....he asked 11 friends at work to put in an entry as well, even though none of them would go.  Out of the unprecedented number of entries, I wonder how many were of this ilk?   How many of those people got tickets, and are now sitting on them?

[FaceOnMars]

I don't think the Springsteen example really applies to the TBF situation, but rather the industry as a whole. 

In general I'm a big fan of the whole "flash tickets" idea, although as you see with Ticket Horse, flash seats don't stop the scalpers at all.  In fact Ticket Horse even supplies it's own secondary market website to resell flash seats.

I have no idea what kind of $ would go into implementing flash seats for TBF, but I would support non-transferable flash seats...this especially makes sense with PB's return policy.  I would be willing to pay extra for this service, but like I said earlier it's not like people were shut out by bots flooding the website.  Tickets were available for 3 weeks....emails were sent out warning people of the fast sale etc.

So FoM, I think your point is valid, but not applicable to this particular situation.

and Jackalope, I was never shut out of Phish Mail Order, and have never won an online lottery since it went into place...0 for 36. 

I know it's inconvenient for all involved, but IMO the best possible scenario is the old Phish Model.  If you want Town Park or Warner camping, you get a money order and mail it in.  Scalpers wont put the money up front without the guarantee of tickets and only the hard core are going to put their cash up front.  Any moron can put in a CC # with no risk, but only people who want to be there will put in cash. 

But like I said, that means more overhead for PB and it's a PITA for Festivarians....I personally don't think it's THAT bad yet, but it could get there some day.

   

Yeah, the Springsteen example was intended more to illustrate what the industry as a whole is contending with vs. the particulars of TBF ... since it exemplifies the more extreme end of the spectrum in terms of how "resellers" can hi-jack the process at the root & manipulate the market significantly.    In this light, I was merely suggesting that promoters and ticketing entities have a responsibility to thrwart this sort of activity.  If not, and I realize this is going to sound extreme, but then it would logically follow that it would be OK for a promoter to sell all of their ticket allotment to a single buyer who would then in turn establish a secondary market at much higher prices.   Obviously, this sounds ludicrous, but it gets at the point in terms of who's in charge of insuring fair access to any given venue.  Or, perhaps my idea of "fair access" is simply a naive sentiment?

Getting back to your point about this being different than TBF in so far as 4-day passes having been online for a while:  yes, I agree, the tactics used in the Springsteen instance wouldn't apply in most cases regarding the TBF (although next year might be a different story), but the general strategy (buy for face, sell for more, reap profit) is generally the same.  I'm not making the claim that the scale is equivalent either ... rather just saying that even though PB and other like-minded promoters (who embrace the spirit of music first and foremost) try their best to discourage scalping, I think greater measures such as non transferable flash tix need to be implemented to have any real effect.  Personally, I'm willing to pay the extra $$ to see such systems in place and operating effectively.

Maybe the Springsteen example has converted me to a hardliner on this topic.  I know I'm preaching to the choir with most of this, but not sure if everyone is on board with turning up the volume for real?!?   Sometimes the old "festivarian" spirit just isn't enough ... might work for tarp hopping, but lets face it, your average scalper could care less about anything other than the exchange of $$$.  I have never bought/sold a ticket (for any event in my life) over face and never plan to, but I know others who have ... and not necessarily to game the system, but simply as a matter of caving in to a desire.  I think there are plenty of good people who will cave in and this is simply the reality of the situation.  Yeah, I'll always try to prod someone away from such activity, but I'm not holding my breath as to this being the ultimate solution ... which I believe ultimately rests with promoters/ticketing in reality.

Here's a follow up to the Springsteen article:

http://www.pollstar.com/blogs/news/archive/2012/01/30/795166.aspx

TM Says Scalpers Botched Boss Onsale1111111

Bruce Springsteen fans may be feeling déjà vu following a recent Ticketmaster onsale the company claimed was stalled by scalpers. For the second time in three years, a ticket launch for Springsteen in the Garden State was fraught with technical difficulties, leaving some fans fuming.

Soon after tickets for the Boss' upcoming concerts at the Izod Center in East Rutherford and the Prudential Center in Newark went on sale the morning of Jan. 27, Springsteen's Facebook page began to light up with complaints.

"So disappointed ...Was on Ticketmaster exactly at 11am when tickets went on sale for the Pru Center(NJ) and waited an hour in query then the system came up with an error message," a fan wrote. "I just wasted an hour of my time for what???"

Others seemed irked over the quantity of tickets available on secondary sites so soon after the launch.

"I gave up 3 hours this morning trying to get tickets for my family to experience something special. Now I see the thousands of the tickets on StubHub for hundreds & thousands of dollars," another fan said.

In a TM statement on Springsteen's website, the company explained it had experienced "highly abnormal traffic patterns" that morning.

"We are investigating the source of the problem and are working to resolve it as quickly as possible, but tickets are selling so please stay patient," the statement said.

And following the investigation, it appeared TM had identified a reason for the ticketing snafu – scalpers.

"Early indications suggest that much of this traffic came from highly suspicious sources, implying that scalpers were using sophisticated computer programs to assault our systems and secure tickets with the sole intention of selling them in the resale market," the company said, noting its site had experienced two and a half times the normal traffic for a major onsale.

Rep. Bill Pascrell, who previously introduced federal legislation to monitor ticketing, announced plans to reintroduce the measure, aptly dubbed the BOSS Act, in light of TM's onsale issues.

"While many fans were unable to get tickets today, many brokers were able to get their hands on good seats for Springsteen and put them up on secondary ticket sellers' web sites where they were sold at higher prices," Pascrell said in a statement. "Whether today's problems are due to honest mistakes or dishonest market manipulation, regular folks who wanted a little entertainment were not able to get what they wanted at a fair price."

Ticketmaster faced serious backlash in Jersey over a Springsteen ticket debacle in 2009 during which many fans claimed they were redirected during an onsale to the company's subsidiary TicketsNow resale site.

TM was hit with a complaint from the state Attorney General's office and a class-action lawsuit and the company settled both.

[FaceOnMars]

As to mail order:  I think this could also work relatively well with TBF if they're currently in charge of their entire ticket allotment (which appears to be the case) and have the process setup so as there's not an issue of "competition" with other methods of ticket sales ... as is the case with respect to Grateful Dead remnant bands' (i.e. Furthur, Ratdog, Phil & Friends, etc.) current mail order setup.

I've stopped completely with their mail order about two years ago and opt for their pre-sale instead.  There's just too limited an allotment allocated to mail order, combined with the slow timing of fullfillment - which made it a much riskier proposition vs. just going with pre-sale.   Would love to continue with their mail order, but I think the way the deck is stacked behind the scenes is not beneficial to fans who want to mail order and be certain of tickets.

[Mr. Geppetto]

Unprecedented numbers of legitimate buyers over-purchasing for safety is a part of this, but it's all a symptom of the scalper panic. Scalping, in the end, is the issue. Also the temptation for those legitimate buyers to sell the extras at a profit is just too great, which is why you see the "modest" prices of 400 (guilty consciences) all the way up to 1200. Yet if anyone doubts the presence of pro scalpers and serious concerns about the security/fairness of the overall ticketing system, why are there already SINGLE DAY passes on stubhub for 500??

In the end I think will call/Flash, or some method that requires you to show up would be best. I really think most of us would support that and even pay a service charge to implement.