sleeping in line and oversized tarps

[FaceOnMars]

While I also don't believe the issues are "obvious", I do believe they do in fact exist and are apparent if one stops to ponder the general notions of property, common area, social interaction, private/public partnerships, etc. ... and in particular, taking pause to observe the subtle shades of how different individuals exhibit varying degrees of behavior with respect to rules governing acceptable use.   I often find it extremely enlightening to observe the small things people do in large crowds ... it's telling about the particular individuals, people in general, as well as the nature of the crowd as a whole.

Although I concede such "issues" exist, I personally don't believe they warrant any sort of extra-ordinary attention other than fine tuning ... as it is clear to me that PB has made an effort to navigate the best/fairest course on these fronts.  We all have our ideal configurations of how things ought to be, but aside from interacting with fellow festivarians, we really don't have a "major balancing act" to contend with on a yearly basis.  So, all things considered, I can't really pick a bone with how the nuances of how order is kept ... since I think it's at the very least PG has implemented a reasonable approach.

[landshark]

The very BEST thing about TBF is the tarp rule!

" if you see an empty tarp, have a sit down for a tune or two". When the owners get back, have a shake and a howdy
 and if you are lucky you are asked to stay if you wish or if there is no room after they arrive, they may ask you to move,just mosey along.

 I will thank you in advance for your kindness !

 I plan on  fully taking  advantage of the empty tarp rule this summer.

A floating , dancing Butterfly, empty tarp to tarp

[landshark]

One of the very first few fests I ever attended I remember my tarp mates goin for Beer and saying" we will be right back, watch the tarp".

What did I know , folks started movin in on me at break, so I laid down and stretched out to SAVE MY SPOT! OH NO, I WAS LOSEN! They were all around me now. Silly me

I think it took a few years to trust the festivarian way. Share and  respect space
What a concept.

[Iriecycle]

Word of the day: Nuance.  Literally a beautiful part of a conversation at Cocina De Luz this morning, and now, and forever.   

 Listening to: Bob Dylan > Johny Cash > Van Morison

[helixer]

The bottom line is this: Huge tarps waste space and force many people to sit a mile away from the stage. I'm not against all tarps or any of the in-line policy. I'm against HUGE tarps. I don't care how many times people say "IF THERE'S SPACE YOU CAN SIT THERE" While this is the rule, most people feel intimidated and will not take their group and sit down on empty space. THAT IS THE REALITY!!! The other problem is that even if you do have the nerve to occupy empty space, you have the (probable) possibility that the party returns to claim their 'saved' spot on the tarp right when one of the bigger performances begin. Now you're faced with having to leave when you least want to. As I've said before, a great solution would be to have a section near the front where 8'x10' maximum tarps allowed only. This is similar to what the Strawberry festival does. It works well.
  Generally speaking- and no I can't prove it but you can mostly verify it- the folks who are most against the limiting tarp size have a long standing method in which they take turns in line and are thusly near the front armed with gigantic tarp. I still think it sucks that most of my friends have to sit in Keltyville when acres of empty space are used to store empty chairs, piles of extra festival stuff and what not.
  Many will say "Wait in line like we do" if you wanna sit close. But most of us (with families etc) can't do this. It's just not viable.
  Again, despite the rule that says otherwise, human nature dictates that most people will NOT use it because most people feel intimidated about occupying someone else's space....even if it is WASTED SPACE.
  A limited tarp size allows those who stand in line to get what they want without wasting space. I guarantee that if PB had a vote most people would be overwhelmingly for limiting size. It's WIN WIN!

 Listening to: Bola Sete

[ponchom1]

Fun topic. Can't wait for the pipes next year and the sprint for space.

 

[FaceOnMars]

The bottom line is this: Huge tarps waste space and force many people to sit a mile away from the stage. I'm not against all tarps or any of the in-line policy. I'm against HUGE tarps. I don't care how many times people say "IF THERE'S SPACE YOU CAN SIT THERE" While this is the rule, most people feel intimidated and will not take their group and sit down on empty space. THAT IS THE REALITY!!! The other problem is that even if you do have the nerve to occupy empty space, you have the (probable) possibility that the party returns to claim their 'saved' spot on the tarp right when one of the bigger performances begin. Now you're faced with having to leave when you least want to. As I've said before, a great solution would be to have a section near the front where 8'x10' maximum tarps allowed only. This is similar to what the Strawberry festival does. It works well.
  Generally speaking- and no I can't prove it but you can mostly verify it- the folks who are most against the limiting tarp size have a long standing method in which they take turns in line and are thusly near the front armed with gigantic tarp. I still think it sucks that most of my friends have to sit in Keltyville when acres of empty space are used to store empty chairs, piles of extra festival stuff and what not.
  Many will say "Wait in line like we do" if you wanna sit close. But most of us (with families etc) can't do this. It's just not viable.
  Again, despite the rule that says otherwise, human nature dictates that most people will NOT use it because most people feel intimidated about occupying someone else's space....even if it is WASTED SPACE.
  A limited tarp size allows those who stand in line to get what they want without wasting space. I guarantee that if PB had a vote most people would be overwhelmingly for limiting size. It's WIN WIN!

I believe you've touched on the crux of how reality plays out EXTREMELY well helixer ... your tweak (of restricting to smaller sizes up front) is an excellent one which could be enforced relatively easily.

PB take note of helixer's suggestion when you ponder what to do about the recent congestion of tarps which now back up into the food lines.

[Iriecycle]

YUP, highlighting a really good point, there is not much space back by the picnic benches and grass by food vendors; before Kelty Land there was ample space there.  Perhaps there are many more larger tarps creeping out on the field.  There certainly are groups setting up shade houses and tarps, doubling up on real estate.  (I still see no benefit to enforcing not sleeping in line, but I like sleep, understood: town ordinance.)  I think the festival experience would be a bit richer for the performers where there more little tarps up front.  We would still be welcome to share space when vacant . . . I think there would be more interaction between festivarians and perhaps the sharing of more kind acts.  WIN - WIN !

 Listening to: Sitting, Waiting, Wishing - Jack Johnson, Stealers Wheel - Stuck in the Middle w/ You

[BillyBeru]

So what's your enforcement plan for oversized tarps?

What about those"over-sized" tarps that have only one tarp runner but 20 people who sit on them all day? (That does happen, you know - I realize most people only notice the empty tarps because you can't really tell a tarp is over-sized when it's fully occupied).

I understand the spirit of your initiative but all you're doing is creating new rules and enforcement that are going to upset even more people (I feel) than the current status quo.

[FaceOnMars]

So what's your enforcement plan for oversized tarps?

What about those"over-sized" tarps that have only one tarp runner but 20 people who sit on them all day? (That does happen, you know - I realize most people only notice the empty tarps because you can't really tell a tarp is over-sized when it's fully occupied).

I understand the spirit of your initiative but all you're doing is creating new rules and enforcement that are going to upset even more people (I feel) than the current status quo.

- spray paint zones
- post signs at entrance about rule adjustment
- have PB volunteer go up and down the tarp line explaining about new rules & zero tolerance
- have a few PB volunteers stationed in the field to act as monitors/refs
- even have a que for festivarians (taking their chances) to wait to be signaled by refs to move in on over-claimed space.
- if there are any arguments with PB volunteers:  one warning, then immediate cutting of wristband (policy to be noticed well in advance)

As to the over-sized tarps with only one runner and 20 people who sit on the tarp all day:  while this might seem like a situation which has 'worked out' (and it has, for those 20 people), but when you stop and think about it there could easily have been two or three other "crews" behind them (who put in the time in line) which could've improved their situation & of course the crews behind them all would move up a slot or two.  Or, even taken to the extreme, there could've been 19 others WAITING IN LINE with just lowback chairs (without tarps) who could've occupied that space which is being "reserved" for the 19 who got to sleep in.

As far as upsetting people, it's certainly not something I'd like to see happen ... but I've got to be up front, the TBF is probably (inadvertently) allows one of THE most stacked decks (which I've come across) in terms of those who've been here the longest being able to improve their odds at controlling real estate in what is supposed to be a GA situation.   Not saying that "seasoned festivarians" cheat or anything, but they're acutely aware of all the detailed nuances of how to "improve" their situations.  Not saying that any these details are secrets .... everyone has an equal opportunity to "work the system", but I do believe the longer you've been attending the better your chances of claiming better space will be.

I do believe PB has done a good job at establishing a general framework which works reasonably well on the whole ... so I wouldn't necessarily support upending the system entirely.   However, I do see this suggestion as being a positive thing on the whole in terms of equitability for more people who are willing to put in the time.

[BillyBeru]

- spray paint zones
- post signs at entrance about rule adjustment
- have PB volunteer go up and down the tarp line explaining about new rules & zero tolerance
- have a few PB volunteers stationed in the field to act as monitors/refs
- even have a que for festivarians (taking their chances) to wait to be signaled by refs to move in on over-claimed space.
- if there are any arguments with PB volunteers:  one warning, then immediate cutting of wristband (policy to be noticed well in advance)

So, in effect, you are creating a pseudo police zone/state, complete with new lines and such. I'm sorry, man, but I completely disagree with this idea.

The beauty of Telluride is that historically similarly minded people have attended this festival and police themselves with our own set of unwritten rules or written ones (allow people to share your empty portions of your tarp). Yes, a few bad apples and bad behaviors exist but hopefully they will be self-corrected as the offenders see how other festivarians act and get a sense for how the true festivarian spirit works.

Your system will help tarnish the current festivarian system of sharing and giving by instituting a "this is my tarp" system created by having officials say who's next, etc. You really want people watching you because of tarp size? You really want Orwell over your shoulder? People come to Telluride to be free of the restrictions of other festivals, and to date, the current system has worked. Don't mess with it!

[Pirate Looks at --]

I have to agree with Billy. Planet Bluegrass does a great job of gently keeping things in line (some pun intended) and allowing us to police the sitautions on our own. We really have earned that right over the years, and the bad apples seem to be gone quickly. I have never been concerned about where my "spot" on the meadow is, the sound is always awesome no matter where you are...even in camp for that matter. I have had the opportunity to spend time on many a tarp and never felt anything but welcomed. So leave things alone and all will be fine! Heres to ya!

 Listening to: Myself typing.

[HuckinFappy]

You can change the rules, create more rules, add enforcement of the rules, and deal with all the associated fallout of that move (increased hostility, bad feelings, frequency of pulling wristbands, etc), or you can work on changing the culture.

There's nothing wrong with how it works today, except that: 1) some people don't feel comfortable using any unoccupied tarp, and some people are too hostile towards those trying to share the space.

So wouldn't it be better it we all worked on that instead?  When you're sitting on your tarp, with a ton of space, and see a couple of people walking around carrying backpacks, looking for space, wave them over to your spot.  Encourage it, make new friends, take risks.   If you're looking for space, don't just plop down, but walk up and ask if that space is free for the moment, shake hands, introduce yourself, and make friends.

And FOM, those roles you're assiging to "volunteers" will never go to volunteers.   While it's supposed to be all in fun, I don't think PB is going to start sticking people in harm's way that aren't full employees covered by all the appropriate insurance.  Especially after last year's events at customs. 

But in any case, if that's the environment we're going to move towards, I can stop trying to find tickets for the family...we have enough rules already.

[landshark]

It is so true,  that we must teach. Just share and respect eachothers space, reach out and be kind and curtious.  tolerance is key.

PBG does it all good just the way it is. Thats why I have been to more then I can count.
BUT, I love all of your minds workin together for a greater solution

I liked my zone  idea. Folks need direction at times, not rules.

[swander99]

- spray paint zones
- post signs at entrance about rule adjustment
- have PB volunteer go up and down the tarp line explaining about new rules & zero tolerance
- have a few PB volunteers stationed in the field to act as monitors/refs
- even have a que for festivarians (taking their chances) to wait to be signaled by refs to move in on over-claimed space.
- if there are any arguments with PB volunteers:  one warning, then immediate cutting of wristband (policy to be noticed well in advance)

As far as upsetting people, it's certainly not something I'd like to see happen ...   Not saying that any these details are secrets .... everyone has an equal opportunity to "work the system".

I do believe PB has done a good job at establishing a general framework which works reasonably well on the whole ... so I wouldn't necessarily support upending the system entirely.   However, I do see this suggestion as being a positive thing on the whole in terms of equitability for more people who are willing to put in the time.

Wow! There is a "volunteer" job that'll surely be popular.  Just imagine the brawls when a wristband gets cut, and the second chance cue line gets the green light. PB could probably set up bleachers and sell tickets just to watch the MMA/TBF-TarpRun Edition.    "FestiRefs" running with scissors?...no thanks!  Leave it alone please.  I'm with Mr.Beru.  It works enough now. 
(is "zero" tolerance in my Festihandbook?)